Barbara Kay Doesn't Like Polyamorists

With Polycon underway and in the news, Barbara Kay at nationalpost.com decided write and let the world know that she thinks being polyamorous makes you immoral and promiscuous (and being promiscuous is very bad). However, she never bothers to cite exactly what is wrong with enjoying loving relationships or sex with more than one person. She probably doesn't care that some polyamorists will have fewer sexual partners over their lifetime than many people who claim to be monogamous.

Should we be surprised that “polyamorists” — mixed-sex threesomes or foursomes in open “relationships” — have come out of the closet, clamouring for their slice of the matrimonial pie?

No, you shouldn't. It's called treating adults as adults.

I’m no Cassandra. But in 2006 I warned in a column: “Don’t panic … about polygamy … Save your panic for “polyamorous” marriage … Thanks to such ‘advances’ as the recent Supreme Court of Canada’s ‘swingers’ ruling [which legitimated group sex as a for-profit business that did no “harm”], polyamory is acquiring respectability, thus paving the way for public acceptance.”

Oh no! Consenting adults loving each other! Oh, the horror of it all!

At the time, there were already Unitarian clerics in the United States who defined themselves as “poly-welcoming,” performing “joining ceremonies” for polyamorous families. In The Netherlands in 2005, one Victor de Brujin and his wife Bianca took “their” bride Miraim Geven in soi-disant marriage, white bridal gowns and all, via a binding “cohabitation contract.”

And the problem with these things is...? Is...? She never says.

In Canada, the seeds for polyamoristic rights were planted as far back as 1997, when the Law Commission of Canada recommended that traditional marriage be put on a level playing field with all “close relationships,” stating that they saw “no reason in principle” to limit registered partnerships to two people.

This conflation of the right to marriage with sexual desire — even promiscuous desire — is not, as we see, an entirely grassroots phenomenon; rather it is top-down activism rooted in theories generated in ivory towers.

Hardly. Polyamory has always existed.

She then goes on to complain about studying and citing the behavior of bonobos.

No, they were not kidding. The presenters made no attempt to disguise their underlying thesis that bonobos have lessons to teach human beings.

What? Next you'll tell us that bats have been using sonar! I wonder if Ms. Kay tells people not to use terms like "nesting" or "leaving the nest" or "building a nest?" And, by all means, stop all lab tests that involve observing behavior in rodents.

She never does explain why polyamorous people should be denied their rights. Throwing up your hands in fear, clutching the pearls, and accurately predicting that civil rights will progress does not demonstrate that such things are bad.

Ms. Kay doesn't want a polyamorous relationship. That's fine by me. But Canada and every other country should keep evolving towards relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality, so that an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, is free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY and ALL consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Read more »

Posted in: Canada,coming out,freedom to marry,law,media,polyamory,prejudice,stigma,swinging

Barbara Kay Doesn't Like Polyamorists

With Polycon underway and in the news, Barbara Kay at nationalpost.com decided write and let the world know that she thinks being polyamorous makes you immoral and promiscuous (and being promiscuous is very bad). However, she never bothers to cite exactly what is wrong with enjoying loving relationships or sex with more than one person. She probably doesn't care that some polyamorists will have fewer sexual partners over their lifetime than many people who claim to be monogamous.

Should we be surprised that “polyamorists” — mixed-sex threesomes or foursomes in open “relationships” — have come out of the closet, clamouring for their slice of the matrimonial pie?

No, you shouldn't. It's called treating adults as adults.

I’m no Cassandra. But in 2006 I warned in a column: “Don’t panic … about polygamy … Save your panic for “polyamorous” marriage … Thanks to such ‘advances’ as the recent Supreme Court of Canada’s ‘swingers’ ruling [which legitimated group sex as a for-profit business that did no “harm”], polyamory is acquiring respectability, thus paving the way for public acceptance.”

Oh no! Consenting adults loving each other! Oh, the horror of it all!

At the time, there were already Unitarian clerics in the United States who defined themselves as “poly-welcoming,” performing “joining ceremonies” for polyamorous families. In The Netherlands in 2005, one Victor de Brujin and his wife Bianca took “their” bride Miraim Geven in soi-disant marriage, white bridal gowns and all, via a binding “cohabitation contract.”

And the problem with these things is...? Is...? She never says.

In Canada, the seeds for polyamoristic rights were planted as far back as 1997, when the Law Commission of Canada recommended that traditional marriage be put on a level playing field with all “close relationships,” stating that they saw “no reason in principle” to limit registered partnerships to two people.

This conflation of the right to marriage with sexual desire — even promiscuous desire — is not, as we see, an entirely grassroots phenomenon; rather it is top-down activism rooted in theories generated in ivory towers.

Hardly. Polyamory has always existed.

She then goes on to complain about studying and citing the behavior of bonobos.

No, they were not kidding. The presenters made no attempt to disguise their underlying thesis that bonobos have lessons to teach human beings.

What? Next you'll tell us that bats have been using sonar! I wonder if Ms. Kay tells people not to use terms like "nesting" or "leaving the nest" or "building a nest?" And, by all means, stop all lab tests that involve observing behavior in rodents.

She never does explain why polyamorous people should be denied their rights. Throwing up your hands in fear, clutching the pearls, and accurately predicting that civil rights will progress does not demonstrate that such things are bad.

Ms. Kay doesn't want a polyamorous relationship. That's fine by me. But Canada and every other country should keep evolving towards relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality, so that an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, is free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY and ALL consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Read more »

Posted in: Canada,coming out,freedom to marry,law,media,polyamory,prejudice,stigma,swinging

Internet Real Estate Appraisals and Divorce

Ever look-up your home on one of the real estate databases like Zillow or Trulia?  Chances are, you'll find the values lower than you expected.  What's up with that?

Being in the divorce industry, we here at the Law Blogger contract for dozens of real estate appraisals every year.  There are a few licensed real estate appraisers that most of us divorce lawyers know, trust and hire.

Over the past few years, some divorce lawyers have strayed from the concept of having clients pay for an appraisal from a licensed real estate appraiser.  Most appraisers charge between $300 and $500 depending on when the appraisal needs to be completed.

First, lawyers started relying on a basic "market analysis", usually performed via a realtor's drive-by; not an in-home inspection by a licensed appraiser.  Then, from 2008 until just recently, foreclosures had to be factored in or out of the appraisal.

In the last few years, real estate listing and estimate web sites have popped-up.  The two most popular are Zillow and Trulia.  These sites provide quick estimates of the basic value of a home; the problem is the data is too quickly obtained.

These sites seem to under-value real estate by 20 to 25%.  Here's why: the sites use a "secret sauce" that we here at the Law Blogger have learned includes, at least in part, using a distance parameter and simply taking the total square footage of all the homes recently "sold" in that geographic area and dividing that number by the total of the reported sale proceeds.  This calculation yields an average sale per square foot; simply multiply the target property by this average square foot price and, viola, you have an instant estimate; never mind that it will almost always be too low.

The reason the estimate is too low is that the web site formulas catch "dollar sales" and other recorded transfers such as short-sales, and divorce settlements, and lump these nominal net proceeds into the square foot average thus driving that average significantly south.

Also, the Internet estimates do not take a seller's motivation into account, nor are the unique characteristics of a specific home, such as location, taken into account.  For example, a lake-front home is averaged in with non-riparian residences, distorting the intrinsic value of living on the water.

Another  problem with these sites is that the data is not current.  A licensed real estate appraiser must use recent comparable sales.

The lessons here folks: you get what you pay for in appraisals just like anything else; and don't always believe what you read on the Internet.

www.waterfordlegal.com
info@waterfordlegal.com

Read more »

Posted in: divorce,divorce lawyer,real estate appraiser,Trulia,Zillow

Two Different Themes Lumped Together

Liana Maeby at hitfix.com appears to be keeping track of depictions or implications of "incest" on television, DVD, and cinema. I recently blogged about another listing she did, and here's her most recent listing.  (SPOILERS for Game of Thrones, Bates Motel, True Blood, The Last Days of Anne Boleyn, The Avengers 2 and Behind the Candelabra might be at that link and below.)

 

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch

 

The Avengers 2: Earlier this month, it was revealed that Marvel would be adding incestuous mutant twins Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch to the superhero sequel, and this week, Joss Whedon gave an interview about the controversial pair, stating: "They’re not there to make things easier. I’m not putting any characters in the movie that will make things easier.” Does that mean they're in there to make out??

Any fans of those characters who want to comment here?

She also lists Hjemlengsel, which I blogged about here.

Unfortunately, Maeby lumps together assault with consensual sex and affection, and stigmatizes consensual sex, as do some of the productions she mentions. It makes as much sense as having a single list of depictions of sexual assaults by strangers and casual sex between strangers in media for the last week. Entertainers, journalists, legislators, and law enforcement should make a distinction between assault/abuse/molestation and consensual relationships and sex between adults. I challenge Maeby and others to read the words of people who are hurt by prejudice against consanguinamory and to consider that there's no good reason why people in such relationships should be discriminated against.

Read more »

Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,father-son,incest,media,mother-son,prejudice,siblings,stigma

Two Different Themes Lumped Together

Liana Maeby at hitfix.com appears to be keeping track of depictions or implications of "incest" on television, DVD, and cinema. I recently blogged about another listing she did, and here's her most recent listing.  (SPOILERS for Game of Thrones, Bates Motel, True Blood, The Last Days of Anne Boleyn, The Avengers 2 and Behind the Candelabra might be at that link and below.)

 

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch

 

The Avengers 2: Earlier this month, it was revealed that Marvel would be adding incestuous mutant twins Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch to the superhero sequel, and this week, Joss Whedon gave an interview about the controversial pair, stating: "They’re not there to make things easier. I’m not putting any characters in the movie that will make things easier.” Does that mean they're in there to make out??

Any fans of those characters who want to comment here?

She also lists Hjemlengsel, which I blogged about here.

Unfortunately, Maeby lumps together assault with consensual sex and affection, and stigmatizes consensual sex, as do some of the productions she mentions. It makes as much sense as having a single list of depictions of sexual assaults by strangers and casual sex between strangers in media for the last week. Entertainers, journalists, legislators, and law enforcement should make a distinction between assault/abuse/molestation and consensual relationships and sex between adults. I challenge Maeby and others to read the words of people who are hurt by prejudice against consanguinamory and to consider that there's no good reason why people in such relationships should be discriminated against.

Read more »

Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,father-son,incest,media,mother-son,prejudice,siblings,stigma

More on Being Attracted to Family

Ken Eisold, PhD, wrote about something we covered earlier: recent evidence about being attracted to the appearance of family members that can manifest in our attraction to people who aren’t family members, but resemble family members.

There is other evidence for this tendency -- as well as parallel perspectives. Neuroscientists now understand that the brain organizes input according to pre-existing categories. So the earlier experiences we all had with caregivers - those who were present and active in caring for us as children - become the templates for later relationships. That may be why, as Professor Fraley put it, we are drawn to others who resemble our kin.

Psychoanalysts have called this tendency "transference," since it seems that attachments to earlier figures in our lives are transferred to current figures with whom we are deeply engaged. That's why the people with whom we fall in love tend to resemble parental figures. That also helps to explain why we reproduce parental expectations in our relationships with the therapists we come to trust and on whom we depend.

So far, so good.

But those attachments can also become frightening if they are too intense or if they tempt us into actions that conflict with adult responsibilities. It is touching for a daughter to say she wants to marry her daddy when she grows up, but it would be shocking for her daddy to encourage those feelings and criminal to exploit them.

Yes, if a parent of a minor child grooms that child for abuse or emotional dependency, that’s horrible. But if not, and that child returns home with eyes wide open having seen what’s out in the world, and as and adult that child chooses to enter into a new level of relationship with a parent, that’s not a problem.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,GSA,science

More on Being Attracted to Family

Ken Eisold, PhD, wrote about something we covered earlier: recent evidence about being attracted to the appearance of family members that can manifest in our attraction to people who aren’t family members, but resemble family members.

There is other evidence for this tendency -- as well as parallel perspectives. Neuroscientists now understand that the brain organizes input according to pre-existing categories. So the earlier experiences we all had with caregivers - those who were present and active in caring for us as children - become the templates for later relationships. That may be why, as Professor Fraley put it, we are drawn to others who resemble our kin.

Psychoanalysts have called this tendency "transference," since it seems that attachments to earlier figures in our lives are transferred to current figures with whom we are deeply engaged. That's why the people with whom we fall in love tend to resemble parental figures. That also helps to explain why we reproduce parental expectations in our relationships with the therapists we come to trust and on whom we depend.

So far, so good.

But those attachments can also become frightening if they are too intense or if they tempt us into actions that conflict with adult responsibilities. It is touching for a daughter to say she wants to marry her daddy when she grows up, but it would be shocking for her daddy to encourage those feelings and criminal to exploit them.

Yes, if a parent of a minor child grooms that child for abuse or emotional dependency, that’s horrible. But if not, and that child returns home with eyes wide open having seen what’s out in the world, and as and adult that child chooses to enter into a new level of relationship with a parent, that’s not a problem.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,GSA,science

CPAA Polycon Gets Coverage

Joseph Brean reported at nationalpost.com on Polycon, which is taking place in British Columbia this week. It is the first national conference in Canada, hosted by the Canadian Polyamory Advocacy Association.

LYLE STAFFORD / Postmedia News file 
CPAA director Zoe Duff is in a “triad,” as she put it, living with two men for the past five years. They all date other people, but the triad is the core.

Sessions at Polycon, as it is billed, focus on legal issues, networking, managing jealousy, “poly-feminism,” and a report based on interviews with both new and more experienced attendees of a polyamorous “sauna night” at a Toronto home.

Sounds like a great conference.

One session describes how to set up a “line family,” described by Richard Gilmore and Elon de Arcana as “a multi-generation poly family that adds new, generally younger, members as the older members pass on or members depart. In this way the family never ends and family investments, businesses and property holdings continue to increase in value. This provides a stable environment and good economic start for children and a secure retirement for older members of the family.

While we wait for full marriage equality, polyamorous people should use whatever legal and financial mechanisms ethically acceptable to protect and provide for themselves and their families.

Like other niche communities, judgmentalism and moral superiority abounds among polyamorists, and minor differences are elevated to wedge issues. 

That is the subject of one talk, by life coach Samantha Fraser, is how not to be a “Poly Elite Douchenozzle.”

“In any pond, there’s people who are going to be, ‘I do it better than you,’” said Zoe Duff, a director of CPAA. “Within the poly community, there are people who think that you need to do it this way, and there’s people who think you need to do it another way.”

Yes, the "poly community" is widely diverse. They only thing uniting all poly people is that they are in, or oriented to, relationships in which there are ultimately at least three people involved. With diversity in what polyamory "looks like," in addition to philosophical, socioeconomic, political, religious, etc. differences, there are going to be conflicts.

The article includes some negativity, but overall it is good to see some coverage of this conference.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,Canada,media,polyamory

CPAA Polycon Gets Coverage

Joseph Brean reported at nationalpost.com on Polycon, which is taking place in British Columbia this week. It is the first national conference in Canada, hosted by the Canadian Polyamory Advocacy Association.

LYLE STAFFORD / Postmedia News file 
CPAA director Zoe Duff is in a “triad,” as she put it, living with two men for the past five years. They all date other people, but the triad is the core.

Sessions at Polycon, as it is billed, focus on legal issues, networking, managing jealousy, “poly-feminism,” and a report based on interviews with both new and more experienced attendees of a polyamorous “sauna night” at a Toronto home.

Sounds like a great conference.

One session describes how to set up a “line family,” described by Richard Gilmore and Elon de Arcana as “a multi-generation poly family that adds new, generally younger, members as the older members pass on or members depart. In this way the family never ends and family investments, businesses and property holdings continue to increase in value. This provides a stable environment and good economic start for children and a secure retirement for older members of the family.

While we wait for full marriage equality, polyamorous people should use whatever legal and financial mechanisms ethically acceptable to protect and provide for themselves and their families.

Like other niche communities, judgmentalism and moral superiority abounds among polyamorists, and minor differences are elevated to wedge issues. 

That is the subject of one talk, by life coach Samantha Fraser, is how not to be a “Poly Elite Douchenozzle.”

“In any pond, there’s people who are going to be, ‘I do it better than you,’” said Zoe Duff, a director of CPAA. “Within the poly community, there are people who think that you need to do it this way, and there’s people who think you need to do it another way.”

Yes, the "poly community" is widely diverse. They only thing uniting all poly people is that they are in, or oriented to, relationships in which there are ultimately at least three people involved. With diversity in what polyamory "looks like," in addition to philosophical, socioeconomic, political, religious, etc. differences, there are going to be conflicts.

The article includes some negativity, but overall it is good to see some coverage of this conference.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,Canada,media,polyamory

Memorial Day Weekend

It is Memorial Day Weekend in the USA. Monday is a day that fallen military personnel are honored and remembered.

Some of our fallen were LGBT, some were poly. Some were consanguinamorous. Until recently, none of them could be open about who they were or who they loved without dire consequences; only some of our LGBT military personnel have been able to come out thanks to the end of DADT. Yet along with the rest of their military brothers and sisters, they fought for freedom.

So please let freedom ring.

Someone should be able to serve no matter their sexual orientation or their relationships with consenting adults. And they should be able to have their marriages legalized, and certainly not punished for their relationship.

Read more »

Posted in: marriage equality,USA

GSA Movie Planned

It sounds like a movie with Genetic Sexual Attraction as a plot element is in the works. At http://screendaily.com, Geoffrey Macnab reports...

Maipo Films (the outfit behind Liv Ullmann’s Miss Julie) is pushing ahead with new incest drama Hjemlengsel and has attached newcomer Ine Wilman as star.

Of course, "incest drama" can mean a movie about sexual assault or molestation, so I was wary, but I kept reading...

Hjemlengsel is the story of an unhappily married dance instructor who discovers she has a brother. The problem arises when she falls in love with him.
“It has some of the same tone as Happy Happy,” Hørsdal said.

Sounds like GSA to me, and probably sounds very familiar to some people who have had experiences like this in their life. It will be directed by Anne Sewitsky, who won at Sundance for "Happy Happy." The budget will be about $4,000,000.

Consanguinamory, whether initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction or not, is a topic that can provide compelling drama as well as comedy, and can do so with realistic portrayals based on relationships that do actually exist. There will be people uncomfortable with the topic, most of them because they haven't allowed themselves to seriously consider such portrayals, instead seeing only negative or horror-based depictions.

Some movie maker needs to talk with Diane Rinella about adapting her novel.

Read more »

Posted in: brother-sister,cheating,consanguineous,GSA,love,media,reunion

GSA Movie Planned

It sounds like a movie with Genetic Sexual Attraction as a plot element is in the works. At http://screendaily.com, Geoffrey Macnab reports...

Maipo Films (the outfit behind Liv Ullmann’s Miss Julie) is pushing ahead with new incest drama Hjemlengsel and has attached newcomer Ine Wilman as star.

Of course, "incest drama" can mean a movie about sexual assault or molestation, so I was wary, but I kept reading...

Hjemlengsel is the story of an unhappily married dance instructor who discovers she has a brother. The problem arises when she falls in love with him.
“It has some of the same tone as Happy Happy,” Hørsdal said.

Sounds like GSA to me, and probably sounds very familiar to some people who have had experiences like this in their life. It will be directed by Anne Sewitsky, who won at Sundance for "Happy Happy." The budget will be about $4,000,000.

Consanguinamory, whether initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction or not, is a topic that can provide compelling drama as well as comedy, and can do so with realistic portrayals based on relationships that do actually exist. There will be people uncomfortable with the topic, most of them because they haven't allowed themselves to seriously consider such portrayals, instead seeing only negative or horror-based depictions.

Some movie maker needs to talk with Diane Rinella about adapting her novel.

Read more »

Posted in: brother-sister,cheating,consanguineous,GSA,love,media,reunion

Driving Under the Influence of Medical Marijuana

The Medical Marijuana Act provides medical pot users with certain immunities relative to their use of marijuana.  Even a medical marijuana patient, however, cannot "medicate" while driving a vehicle, raising the question: just how much pot legally can be in the patient-driver's system?

Earlier this week, the Michigan Supreme Court released a much-anticipated decision resolving a conflict in the Motor Vehicle Code and the Medical Marijuana Act here in Michigan.  In a unanimous per curiam opinion, issued without oral arguments, the Supreme Court held in People v Koon that a medical marijuana patient is legal to drive a vehicle, even with some THC in his blood.

Rodney Koon was charged under the "zero tolerance" provision of the Motor Vehicle Code which proscribes driving with any amount of a Schedule 1 drug in the driver's system.  Koon, a properly registered medical marijuana patient, was initially stopped for speeding in Grand Traverse County.

Both the district court and the Grand Traverse County Circuit Court agreed with Mr. Koon's lawyers that the MMA provided Koon with immunity from prosecution under the motor vehicle code's "zero tolerance" provision -case dismissed.  The Michigan Court of Appeals reversed that dismissal, reasoning that even under the MMA, driving under the influence of marijuana remains illegal, and concluding that any amount of marijuana found in a driver's system constitutes "under the influence".

The Supreme Court disagreed, holding that some proof that a driver is operating a vehicle while under the influence of marijuana is necessary; evidence of a miniscule amount of THC in that driver's blood-stream, without more, is not enough to strip that driver of the immunity from prosecution available under the MMA.

This decision essentially amounts to a "sliding-scale" for pot-card carrying drivers.  You had better be sure sufficient time has elapsed between toking-down, and getting behind the wheel. 

We here at the Law Blogger suggest that 15 or 20 minutes clearly is not sufficient to keep the rest of us safe from a pot patient's stoned driving.  But what about an hour or two? 

www.clarkstonlegal.com
info@clarkstonlegal.com

Read more »

Posted in: criminal defense lawyer,medical marijuana,Michigan Medical Marijuana Act,Michigan Motor Vehicle Code,Michigan Supreme Court,People v Koon,Rodney Koon

Taking Prejudice to a Whole New Level

Actors get typecast, or some people identify an actor with one role so much that it interferes with appreciating that actor in a different roles. Amanda Dobbins wrote a piece I found at vulture.com titled "The Divergent–Fault in Our Stars Fake Incest Problem" in which she has trouble accepting casting choices because two actors who played sibling characters in a trilogy will be playing unrelated characters in another production who, at some point, are "making out."

We understand that these are made-up characters in a made-up movie and nothing untoward is actually happening, but still: This is a strange decision. Of all the possible teen actors (and there are so many, according to the fan blogs), why would you choose the one guy who is already playing your lead actress's brother in another high-profile YA franchise? It is hard enough to forget an actor's résumé under normal circumstances; now we have to bring fake incest into this?

My guess is that the people who made the casting decisions made them based on the needs of the the current production.

It makes all four (five, probably) movies ickier, for no obvious reason other than "we liked this guy, too."
Okay, icky is a bit immature.

Yes. It is.

Here's one of the better comments left by a reader...

spage6

John himself address this in a video. He said something along the lines of, 'You don't watch Silver Linings Playbook and wonder what Katniss is doing in a suburb of Philadelphia.' He also says they work well together. Probably because they already know each other. They are actors. They act!

Actors are playing roles, usually roles written by other people. This is why someone can play a soldier in one movie and conscientious objector in another movie. Furthermore, most fictional characters do some things the writers and actors who bring them to life haven't personally done or wouldn't do.

It's sad that someone is so prejudiced against consanguinamory that they project their prejudice onto nonexistent relationships between fictional characters. Who watched Bernard Hill's character in "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King" and couldn't accept him because they had seen his character in "Titanic?" Then, to actually bother to express to the world a personal unease or disgust over the situation is just... well, it is hurtful. That brings me to why I bring this up, in addition to the fact that actors need to make a living and do so playing different roles. There are actors, and there are audience members, who have had actual relationships with close relatives that include romance and sexual contact. Some of those relationships are ongoing. They face enough prejudice, often including discriminatory laws, without people going out of their way to basically say "Ewww, gross!" Not everyone is going to want the same love life as everyone else. Let's have a little more sensitivity for consanguiamorous people and reason and respect for actors.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,media,prejudice,stigma

Taking Prejudice to a Whole New Level

Actors get typecast, or some people identify an actor with one role so much that it interferes with appreciating that actor in a different roles. Amanda Dobbins wrote a piece I found at vulture.com titled "The Divergent–Fault in Our Stars Fake Incest Problem" in which she has trouble accepting casting choices because two actors who played sibling characters in a trilogy will be playing unrelated characters in another production who, at some point, are "making out."

We understand that these are made-up characters in a made-up movie and nothing untoward is actually happening, but still: This is a strange decision. Of all the possible teen actors (and there are so many, according to the fan blogs), why would you choose the one guy who is already playing your lead actress's brother in another high-profile YA franchise? It is hard enough to forget an actor's résumé under normal circumstances; now we have to bring fake incest into this?

My guess is that the people who made the casting decisions made them based on the needs of the the current production.

It makes all four (five, probably) movies ickier, for no obvious reason other than "we liked this guy, too."
Okay, icky is a bit immature.

Yes. It is.

Here's one of the better comments left by a reader...

spage6

John himself address this in a video. He said something along the lines of, 'You don't watch Silver Linings Playbook and wonder what Katniss is doing in a suburb of Philadelphia.' He also says they work well together. Probably because they already know each other. They are actors. They act!

Actors are playing roles, usually roles written by other people. This is why someone can play a soldier in one movie and conscientious objector in another movie. Furthermore, most fictional characters do some things the writers and actors who bring them to life haven't personally done or wouldn't do.

It's sad that someone is so prejudiced against consanguinamory that they project their prejudice onto nonexistent relationships between fictional characters. Who watched Bernard Hill's character in "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King" and couldn't accept him because they had seen his character in "Titanic?" Then, to actually bother to express to the world a personal unease or disgust over the situation is just... well, it is hurtful. That brings me to why I bring this up, in addition to the fact that actors need to make a living and do so playing different roles. There are actors, and there are audience members, who have had actual relationships with close relatives that include romance and sexual contact. Some of those relationships are ongoing. They face enough prejudice, often including discriminatory laws, without people going out of their way to basically say "Ewww, gross!" Not everyone is going to want the same love life as everyone else. Let's have a little more sensitivity for consanguiamorous people and reason and respect for actors.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,media,prejudice,stigma

Harvey Milk Day

May 22 is Harvey Milk Day. In California, the day was established in 2009 by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Milk was a politician who became the first openly gay person to be elected to public office in California when he won a seat on the San Francisco Board of Supervisors. Milk served almost 11 months in office,  passing an important gay rights ordinance for the city. On November 27, 1978, Milk and Mayor George Moscone were assassinated by Dan White, another city supervisor.

We don't make progress in the fight for civil rights without courageous and motivated people like Harvey Milk.

Read more »

Posted in: California,LGBT,politicians

What Really Happened in Pender County North Carolina?

Something is rotten in North Carolina. What, exactly, remains to be seen. Something terrible has happened, but I'm not sure if it because some allegations are true or because they false.

Christina Haley reported at portcitydaily.com several days ago...

Detectives with the Pender County Sheriff’s Office are searching a father and daughter wanted for incest.

That's how the article opens. Based on that alone, it sounds like they are wanted for consensual adult incest with each other, which shouldn't a be a crime in the first place.

Robert Earley [address redacted] is charged with incest against a child who is 13, 14 or 15 years old and defendant is at least six years older than the child when the incest occurred, Detective Sgt. John Leatherwood said. He is also charged with statutory rape/sex offense where the defendant is at least six years older than the child, negligent child abuse involving serious injury, and incest.

Serious charges. If someone preys on a child, they should be locked up in a bad place for a very long time.

Natalie Earley, who lives in the same home with her father, is also charged with incest.

Hmmm. Comparing the charges against her to the charges against him, it would seem to me that the charge against her deals with consensual adult incest, since she isn't charged with abusing a child. If that is so, she shouldn't be facing any charges. He's 51, she's 25.

The story was also reported at wect.com and then more information was presented in this report by Sarah Murphy at wwaytv3.com...

When WWAY drove by the home where investigators say Robert and Natalie used to live, Robert's mother and one of his daughters were home and spoke to us.

They say the allegations Pender County has charged Robert and Natalie with stem from a custody battle Robert and his estranged wife are having over their five-year-old son. As far as the family is concerned, Robert and Natalie are both innocent.

Ah. The plot thickens. Do some people abuse children? Yes. Do some people in custody disputes make false allegations of child abuse? Yes. Do family members of people who are facing criminal charges swear their loved ones are innocent even if they aren't? Yes. So... we still don't know for sure what is going on here. But read on...

Jennifer says she is embarrassed because of the two incest charges pinned on her father and the incest charge against her 25-year-old sister.

"My father molested my little sister, whose 25? She not 12, 13, 14, or 15 and (the child) is 5," Earley said.

The child, who we are not identifying because of the nature of the alleged crimes, is Robert's child from another marriage according to Jennifer. Jennifer said Robert has custody of the child, but now the child's mother wants the child back.

"The mother has said a bunch of things, allegations on my father," Earley said.

According to Jennifer, her father and sister took the child away because of the custody battle with Robert's estranged wife. She went on to say that Natalie has been very involved in the child's care and has been given some parental rights over the child.

Again, custody battles can get very nasty.

She also defended Natalie's character, stating she has never done anything wrong in her life.

"My sister has a perfect record. She has been an outstanding citizen," Earley said. "She is a CNA, and she works two jobs half of the time to try and help out."

That doesn't mean there wasn't child abuse. But again, what is the evidence there was child abuse? As the family points out, the allegations don't match the ages of the people supposedly involved. Some comments were left after the article...

The

Submitted by Guest7969 (not verified) on Fri, 05/17/2013 - 9:12am.

problem is..NO MATTER WHAT the outcome...the guy has been branded as sleeping with his daughter and molesting children FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. In the US...you are GUILTY even if your innocent.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth to that.

These charges should be

Submitted by sue (not verified) on Fri, 05/17/2013 - 2:15am.

These charges should be thoroughly investigated, and if the mother has lied she should be thrown in jail and given an extreme sentence. This could be a horrible crime... or it could be an evil accusation that causes harm to this mans life as well as other members of this family.

Agreed.

ALL of the facts....

Submitted by One fine guest (not verified) on Fri, 05/17/2013 - 8:18am.

I would think that if a law enforcement agency is going to issue a press release they would put all of the important information in it. Including the small boy in the press release could be the one little thing that could cause a citizen to pay closer attention to a couple seen at a gas station. If their investigator did not even know about the boy I question how well he did the rest of his investigation. Pender County Sheriffs Department never has been the brightest bulb in the pack, but recently they have been slipping big time

Good point.

The Pender County father and daughter on the run and charged with sex offenses reached out to WWAY over the weekend. They say they want their side of the story to be heard.

Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but it seems to me that very few people do this. The last thing a criminal, especially a child abuser, wants to do is talk with the media.

Deputies continue to look for Robert Lee Earley Jr., 52, and his daughter Natalie Earley, 25. Both are wanted for incest. Over the weekend, they called WWAY.

I'm not sure why that is at the top of the story, rather than the more serious allegations against him.

"My name is Natalie Earley, and I'm calling to tell you there is two sides to every story, and me and my dad would like to set up a private interview before we turn ourselves in," Natalie Earley said in a voicemail.
 
She and her father left three messages on WWAY's general manager's phone declaring their innocence.

If you go to the website, you can hear the audio.

In their voicemails, both Earleys claim there is a lot more to the story. Robert Earley says all of the allegations against him and his daughter stem from a custody battle with his estranged wife.

"I told this to Sgt. (John) Leatherwood when he interviewed me, and then he threatened to press charges against me for child abuse and child neglect, so I left," Robert Earley said.

Natalie Earley says her father is not the man deputies say he is.

"My dad does not harm anybody," she said in one of her two messages. "He's harmless. I really need you to get the real story on the inside scoop."

Unfortunately, people involved in child abuse often do not think they are harming the child, or will swear they would never hurt a child. So if these two adults have been involved in child abuse, Natalie may think she is telling the truth. But if they were, why wasn't she charged, too? On the other hand, if these allegation are false, she may indeed be telling the truth.

So what really has happened? We can't know based on the information provided. Either way, something terrible has happened. Either a child has been abused, or someone has made false allegations that have ruined the lives of many people. Regardless, the fact remains that molestation or sexual assault of a child should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and consensual sex between adults (no matter how closely related) should not be a crime in the first place. That's why "incest" needs to be dropped from the criminal code and needs be clarified when used by journalists.

I welcome comments or emails from anyone who has more information, including the people involved.

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,children,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,incest,law,prosecution,stigma

What Really Happened in Pender County North Carolina?

Something is rotten in North Carolina. What, exactly, remains to be seen. Something terrible has happened, but I'm not sure if it because some allegations are true or because they false.

Christina Haley reported at portcitydaily.com several days ago...

Detectives with the Pender County Sheriff’s Office are searching a father and daughter wanted for incest.

That's how the article opens. Based on that alone, it sounds like they are wanted for consensual adult incest with each other, which shouldn't a be a crime in the first place.

Robert Earley [address redacted] is charged with incest against a child who is 13, 14 or 15 years old and defendant is at least six years older than the child when the incest occurred, Detective Sgt. John Leatherwood said. He is also charged with statutory rape/sex offense where the defendant is at least six years older than the child, negligent child abuse involving serious injury, and incest.

Serious charges. If someone preys on a child, they should be locked up in a bad place for a very long time.

Natalie Earley, who lives in the same home with her father, is also charged with incest.

Hmmm. Comparing the charges against her to the charges against him, it would seem to me that the charge against her deals with consensual adult incest, since she isn't charged with abusing a child. If that is so, she shouldn't be facing any charges. He's 51, she's 25.

The story was also reported at wect.com and then more information was presented in this report by Sarah Murphy at wwaytv3.com...

When WWAY drove by the home where investigators say Robert and Natalie used to live, Robert's mother and one of his daughters were home and spoke to us.

They say the allegations Pender County has charged Robert and Natalie with stem from a custody battle Robert and his estranged wife are having over their five-year-old son. As far as the family is concerned, Robert and Natalie are both innocent.

Ah. The plot thickens. Do some people abuse children? Yes. Do some people in custody disputes make false allegations of child abuse? Yes. Do family members of people who are facing criminal charges swear their loved ones are innocent even if they aren't? Yes. So... we still don't know for sure what is going on here. But read on...

Jennifer says she is embarrassed because of the two incest charges pinned on her father and the incest charge against her 25-year-old sister.

"My father molested my little sister, whose 25? She not 12, 13, 14, or 15 and (the child) is 5," Earley said.

The child, who we are not identifying because of the nature of the alleged crimes, is Robert's child from another marriage according to Jennifer. Jennifer said Robert has custody of the child, but now the child's mother wants the child back.

"The mother has said a bunch of things, allegations on my father," Earley said.

According to Jennifer, her father and sister took the child away because of the custody battle with Robert's estranged wife. She went on to say that Natalie has been very involved in the child's care and has been given some parental rights over the child.

Again, custody battles can get very nasty.

She also defended Natalie's character, stating she has never done anything wrong in her life.

"My sister has a perfect record. She has been an outstanding citizen," Earley said. "She is a CNA, and she works two jobs half of the time to try and help out."

That doesn't mean there wasn't child abuse. But again, what is the evidence there was child abuse? As the family points out, the allegations don't match the ages of the people supposedly involved. Some comments were left after the article...

The

Submitted by Guest7969 (not verified) on Fri, 05/17/2013 - 9:12am.

problem is..NO MATTER WHAT the outcome...the guy has been branded as sleeping with his daughter and molesting children FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. In the US...you are GUILTY even if your innocent.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth to that.

These charges should be

Submitted by sue (not verified) on Fri, 05/17/2013 - 2:15am.

These charges should be thoroughly investigated, and if the mother has lied she should be thrown in jail and given an extreme sentence. This could be a horrible crime... or it could be an evil accusation that causes harm to this mans life as well as other members of this family.

Agreed.

ALL of the facts....

Submitted by One fine guest (not verified) on Fri, 05/17/2013 - 8:18am.

I would think that if a law enforcement agency is going to issue a press release they would put all of the important information in it. Including the small boy in the press release could be the one little thing that could cause a citizen to pay closer attention to a couple seen at a gas station. If their investigator did not even know about the boy I question how well he did the rest of his investigation. Pender County Sheriffs Department never has been the brightest bulb in the pack, but recently they have been slipping big time

Good point.

The Pender County father and daughter on the run and charged with sex offenses reached out to WWAY over the weekend. They say they want their side of the story to be heard.

Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but it seems to me that very few people do this. The last thing a criminal, especially a child abuser, wants to do is talk with the media.

Deputies continue to look for Robert Lee Earley Jr., 52, and his daughter Natalie Earley, 25. Both are wanted for incest. Over the weekend, they called WWAY.

I'm not sure why that is at the top of the story, rather than the more serious allegations against him.

"My name is Natalie Earley, and I'm calling to tell you there is two sides to every story, and me and my dad would like to set up a private interview before we turn ourselves in," Natalie Earley said in a voicemail.
 
She and her father left three messages on WWAY's general manager's phone declaring their innocence.

If you go to the website, you can hear the audio.

In their voicemails, both Earleys claim there is a lot more to the story. Robert Earley says all of the allegations against him and his daughter stem from a custody battle with his estranged wife.

"I told this to Sgt. (John) Leatherwood when he interviewed me, and then he threatened to press charges against me for child abuse and child neglect, so I left," Robert Earley said.

Natalie Earley says her father is not the man deputies say he is.

"My dad does not harm anybody," she said in one of her two messages. "He's harmless. I really need you to get the real story on the inside scoop."

Unfortunately, people involved in child abuse often do not think they are harming the child, or will swear they would never hurt a child. So if these two adults have been involved in child abuse, Natalie may think she is telling the truth. But if they were, why wasn't she charged, too? On the other hand, if these allegation are false, she may indeed be telling the truth.

So what really has happened? We can't know based on the information provided. Either way, something terrible has happened. Either a child has been abused, or someone has made false allegations that have ruined the lives of many people. Regardless, the fact remains that molestation or sexual assault of a child should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and consensual sex between adults (no matter how closely related) should not be a crime in the first place. That's why "incest" needs to be dropped from the criminal code and needs be clarified when used by journalists.

I welcome comments or emails from anyone who has more information, including the people involved.

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,children,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,incest,law,prosecution,stigma

Coming Out as Polyamorous to Potential Partners

Anna Pulley, RedEye's sex columnist at redeyechicago.com, answered a question about coming out as poly to potential dates...

I'm wondering when is the best time, and how, to tell a prospective dating person that you are in a polyamorous relationship. Obviously before any physicality, but in a more granular sense, when? Call, text, first date?--Poly Wanna Answer

Unless someone has met in forum or context that implies their relationship orientation, nobody should make assumptions either way. It should not be assumed that someone is monogamous or looking for monogamy, nor should it be assumed someone is polyamorous or looking for polyamory.

The answer...

There’s a delicate balance when you’re first dating someone of what to disclose and what not to. You want to be honest and upfront, but you also want to respect the “getting to know you” process, which can be upset by Big Conversations too early.

I see nothing wrong with bringing up on a first date why you are dating. In fact, I think it is a good idea. The discussion doesn't have to be serious or drawn out. Here's an example...



"I'm dating to eventually find a spouse. I'm not dating just to have dinner. Why are you dating?"

Or

"I am mostly dating for fun. I'm not looking for anything too serious right now. Why are you dating?"

From there, someone can explain that they are polyamorous and that they don't expect that they'll ever be in an exclusive relationship with only one person on a permanent basis. Or, someone can explain that they are monogamous and before they enter into a sexual relationship with someone, they need to have a mutual commitment to a monogamous relationship. Or... whatever it is that someone needs. If someone doesn't know what it is they need yet, they can say so. There is nothing wrong with explaining on a first date why you are dating. Obviously, if you're looking for a spouse, you're not going to determine someone is the right person for you in the first date, or even for a while.

Our culture has largely presented monogamy, or at least promises of monogamy, as the only acceptable relationship and as such, has become something people assume they have with someone, or they assume that if someone is on a date with them, they are not having sex with someone else. This shouldn't be. Nobody should assume monogamy is in place or will be the relationship model unless it has been explicitly discussed and mutually agreed. Ideally, nobody should have to "come out" as polyamorous to a date, but because of how things have been, it is the way things will likely be for a while.

“So, are you dating anyone?” is a common question, and a perfect opportunity to let your prospective date know that you are dating other people, and not monogamously. If they want to know more, or have specific questions about it, then tell them. Don’t lie or evade the question if it comes up, since that will only serve to bite you in the ass later (and not in the way you are hoping).

As is so often said by polyamorous people and relationship advisers, communication is extremely important.

Polyamorous people do have meetups and networking mechanisms, and if someone meets that way, or through a online dating service that allows someone to mention they are poly, then this shouldn't be an issue, of course. But people meet so many other ways. If you've bumped into someone at the gym or in a coffee shop, how are they supposed to know you're polyamorous? They probably won't figure it out just from that.

Poly people also have to be careful in that we have to let a date or potential date who hasn't previously identified as poly time to consider what it is, and what it isn't, and even time to experience it. I'm not one of those people who thinks everyone is, deep down, polyamorous in the sense we are talking about. Some people need monogamy, and it doesn't help anyone if they try to force themselves to be polyamorous. There are people who discover their polyamorous side because they date someone who is poly... many people, actually. But isn't for everyone. The other side of this is monogamists should not make the mistake of thinking someone is only poly because they need to be tamed and they are going to be the person who does it. That doesn't work on poly people, and it doesn't work on cheaters. and in both cases the monogamist is setting themselves up for a world of hurt if they try.

If communication puts a damper on a date, so be it. Better the date end early because of the truth than for there to be subsequent dates based on mistaken assumptions.


All of this is about coming out to a date or potential date and is very different than coming out in general, such as to family, coworkers, employers, etc.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,coming out,polyamory

Minnesota Becomes 12th State to Legalize Same-Sex Marriage

Minnesota, land of 10,000 lakes, becomes the 12th state to interpret the phrase, "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", to include the right to chose who you love and marry, same-sex inclusive.  Governor Mark Dayton signed the bill into law on the first business day following a 37-30 vote by the state senate in St. Paul late last week.

When it looked like this bill would pass, many citizens from the state and region congregated near the capitol in celebratory anticipation of the law's passage.  Gay marriage activists and constitutional law scholars alike hail what appears to be significant momentum toward the legal recognition of gay marriage as an individual's civil right.

Other supporters lament, however, that it will likely take decades for all the fifty states -or at least most of them- to pass laws similar to the one in St. Paul last week.

This is why all eyes are on Washington, D.C. and our SCOTUS, where release of the much-anticipated opinion in Hollingsworth v Perry is imminent as the High Court's term comes to a close next month.  At least one federal judge here in Detroit, MI has been holding a same-sex marriage case in abeyance until the SCOTUS decides Hollingsworth.

Minnesota, like Michigan, had a state-law ban on gay marriage.  The lake tides have changed, however, in the course of the past year and within the last election-cycle; the state-law ban in Minnesota was overturned and the gay marriage law passed.  We here at the Law Blogger have to wonder if this could have ever happened when Jesse Ventura was the governor...

Michigan, along with California, Hawaii, Colorado, Nevada, and a half-dozen other states, are seen as battleground states on this issue.  We cannot help but notice the high correlation between the passage of this series of states' civil rights laws, and the presence of a Democratic governor.

We will know more about the progression of this civil rights struggle next month after SCOTUS rules.

www.clarkstonlegal.com
info@clarkstonlegal.com

Read more »

Posted in: civil rights,Detroit,gay marriage,Governor Mark Dayton,Jesse Ventura,MN,same-sex marriage,St. Paul

Consanguinamory as Entertainment

Liana Maeby wrote at hitfix.com, providing spoilers galore about some television shows and other entertainment, including Bates Motel and The Borgias.

I previously blogged about The Borgias with spoilers here.

Credit: A&E

When last we spoke of incest, rumors were circulating about the decades-long affair between Jaime and Cersei on "Game of Thrones" and Norma was inserting herself deeper and deeper into her son's life on "Bates Motel." Also, half of Iceland began taking precautionary measures to ensure they weren't accidentally banging their cousins. A whole week has gone by since then, and it has brought with it many more gifts of incestuous content. Here's all the latest on the last taboo.

Collections like this are often presented as "isn't this an outrageous trend," but the truth is, people are fascinated by the topic.

As can be seen with this collection, consensual incest is presented as something shocking or indicative or something being wrong with the people involved.

The truth, though, is that there are good citizens, good neighbors, good people who have had, or are in, consanguinamorous relationships that are happy, healthy, and fulfilling, where the biggest problems are the prejudice they face or did face.

These topics have always been a part of literature and theater, and our media and entertainment should present a balanced depiction of the topic.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,media,stigma

Consanguinamory as Entertainment

Liana Maeby wrote at hitfix.com, providing spoilers galore about some television shows and other entertainment, including Bates Motel and The Borgias.

I previously blogged about The Borgias with spoilers here.

Credit: A&E

When last we spoke of incest, rumors were circulating about the decades-long affair between Jaime and Cersei on "Game of Thrones" and Norma was inserting herself deeper and deeper into her son's life on "Bates Motel." Also, half of Iceland began taking precautionary measures to ensure they weren't accidentally banging their cousins. A whole week has gone by since then, and it has brought with it many more gifts of incestuous content. Here's all the latest on the last taboo.

Collections like this are often presented as "isn't this an outrageous trend," but the truth is, people are fascinated by the topic.

As can be seen with this collection, consensual incest is presented as something shocking or indicative or something being wrong with the people involved.

The truth, though, is that there are good citizens, good neighbors, good people who have had, or are in, consanguinamorous relationships that are happy, healthy, and fulfilling, where the biggest problems are the prejudice they face or did face.

These topics have always been a part of literature and theater, and our media and entertainment should present a balanced depiction of the topic.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,media,stigma

Two Men Still Denied the Freedom to Marry

Slowly, the (limited) same-sex freedom to marry is being won in more states in the US, and in countries around the world. But there are gay couples who still face discrimination and a denial of their right to marry. This is one reason why we need full marriage equality.

“Anonymous” is a gay man who would marry the love of his life, a bisexual man, if he could. But he can’t, because that man he’s sharing his life with is his brother.

Here’s the interview. Some of the language is descriptive of sex.

[This interview is  being bumped up on the blog in honor of more states adopting the limited same-gender freedom to marry.]



***

Describe your family background.

Anonymous: We grew up together. He’s my full, biological brother, two years older than me. We're two of four siblings; the other two are girls. Our parents are in a healthy marriage.


How did your relationship become consanguinamorous?

Anonymous: We started out as brothers with benefits. We shared a room. He was naked a lot. He slept in just boxers or naked, and we also shared a bathroom so we'd frequently walk in on each other showering or pissing, etc. I admired his penis. I started getting erections when I thought about him and having feelings for him that I thought were unusual. I asked him about masturbation, and he showed me. He noticed how I watched closely and offered to let me touch him, and that was the first time I blew him. I wasn't very good, but I loved how he tasted. I eventually got better. The start was mostly blowjobs, handjobs and making out. Eventually though, he brought up anal sex, and I trusted him, so I let him. That was particularly nice--as I was horny 24/7, and had him there.

Eventually, when we didn't stop after a few years, we had to talk about it. He slept with a few girls and one other guy, but told me he didn't enjoy it as much as being with me. I hadn't done anything with anyone else. It shifted into something that was sort of... open for sex but did not allow relationships, I guess? I experimented with a few friends, and he would sleep with others, but he didn't get emotionally or romantically involved with them.


What is the situation now?

Anonymous: We live in an apartment together. What we have now is a more traditional open relationship. We're basically a normal couple, except we still can sleep with other people--though now the other partners are less frequent, and there's a lot of talking about who/when/etc. Sometimes we have threesomes to make it more fun.


Who else knows about the full nature of your relationship?

Anonymous: Not many people. One of our sisters knows, and has known since we were teenagers. She was understanding, and told us that she'd once had a crush on one of our Uncles and didn't find our relationship disgusting, and could relate. She asked some questions, particularly to me because I'm younger, to make sure it was safe, but has approved. We haven't told our other sister or parents. We have several friends who know, three or four, and they've kept our relationship a secret and have also been supportive (a few friends are no longer friends because of their reactions). We also are open to certain people we bring home if we're going to do something sexual and want them to know before anything happens, but we normally pick people we think are more open-minded and won't react strongly.


How do you feel about your lovemaking?

Anonymous: I feel very good about our sex life. It began as experimenting and sexual curiosity... just kissing, touching each other naked, jerking each other off, and some sucking. Nothing was forced or pushed, and we both wanted to do it. As things progressed, we eventually started to have anal sex, and I was the bottom for that. It hurt somewhat at the beginning, but I trusted him and eventually came to love it more then anything else we'd done. Now we have a healthy sex life. I would say we have some sort of sex 2-3 times a day. Sometimes that involves a third partner, and sometimes we sleep with others not related to us, but normally it is in our apartment (while the other is there).


Do you think family members have some things better or some advantages that unrelated lovers might not, such as more intense feelings and lovemaking? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages?

Anonymous: For sure in the beginning! Being sexually curious while young, it is almost impossible to find someone to explore with. You're not supposed to look on the Internet (and may not even know how or where to at that point) and have to look toward people you know. Sometimes your friends aren't at the same place as you, or ready. I always had my older brother as a figure in my life, and as a man to look up to. He was strong, handsome, and available to me. And there's a sense of trust automatically there that you'd have to build with someone new.

It is a safe person to explore with. Now surely there are un-consensual acts that happen as well, but in my case it was 100% consensual, and so it was very enjoyable. Now I do think it will be hard to maintain that relationship, especially if it grows to more then sex. But I still find it worth it.


What do you say of people who disapprove of your love?

Anonymous: That's hard. Really hard. We try to be very, very careful with who we tell and kind of do small tests to gage how they feel about less "normal" topics. Taboo subjects. Luckily, a lot of reaction from friends has been positive for us. If negative... what can you say? They're a person you cared about, and you're a person they cared about and none of that just disappears. And to a degree I understand because of how many un-consensual incest relationships go on and how society defines it. It is hard to be angry. Some of them want to only see one of us at a time, or want us to just not be romantic in front of them... some don't want to see us anymore. But nobody has told our family, and that at least is something to be thankful for. They have respected our privacy.


Would you get legally married to him?

Anonymous: Yes, in a second. Without a doubt.


What advice do you have to someone who has romantic or sexual feelings for a close biological relative?

Anonymous: It depends on their age, and the age of the other. If it was a situation similar to ours (brothers, cousins, etc) then I would say it is safer to say something or try to get involved with a relative. You still need to be careful--there are small tests to do to gage whether they'd react badly or not. And clearly if you don't think you can trust them, then don't. If you're both older but around the same age, you'll have to be more careful. When younger, you possibly could both have sexual curiosities that are part of puberty and growing up, which may be faded by the time you're older. Maybe not. Tread carefully. Lastly, you'll have to be really, really cautious if you are much younger and they are older. Sometimes you have a crush on your father, mother, or an uncle or aunt when young, and that's a place you really can't go. But if the feelings persist past the date of your adulthood, then maybe you should start looking into it. But very slowly.


Have you met anyone else, that you know of, who is with a close biological relative?

Anonymous: Yes, a few people. Several people who've just had one or so experiences with a relative as a teenager, and only two that are in a relationship with a relative.

***

There is no reason that these men should be denied the right to marry. They have a beautiful, caring relationship that resembles a marriage, only without the legal recognitions and protections. Not everyone is going to want a gay marriage, and not everyone is going to be comfortable with the idea of sex between family members, but we're not all going to want each other's love lives, and that's okay, as long as we don't deny others their right to choose.

In interviewing (and sometimes observing) the people in these consanguinamorous relationships, and in talking with more people who I haven't interviewed, there is a consistent thread to be found in such relationships. That thread is that the relationships are stronger, more intense, and more enjoyable than any others experienced; nothing else compares.

Since there is no rational reason to discriminate against them and deny them full marriage equality, won't you help bring about that equality sooner rather than later, so that and adult is free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults?

Other interviews are here.

If you'd like to share your own story related to a "prohibited" consensual relationship, you can contact me via fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com or on Facebook.

Read more »

Posted in: bisexual,brother-brother,consanguineous,family reaction,incest,lack of equality harms,LGBT,love,open,polyamory,same-sex,siblings