Showing posts with label brother-brother. Show all posts
Showing posts with label brother-brother. Show all posts

Thursday, March 6, 2014

Frequently Asked Question: Can Siblings Marry?

The following is based on my understanding. I’m not at attorney and this should not be considered legal advice.

Can siblings marry?

I’m not aware of any government that will currently marry full-blood siblings or recognize a marriage of full-blood siblings; rather, if it was discovered by the authorities after an official marriage was formed that the spouses were, in fact, siblings, the marriage would be dissolved and considered invalid. If the spouses knew they were siblings when they married, they would be subject to prosecution. If they discovered the genetic relationship after getting married, they would have to file for an annulment or dissolution or risk prosecution.

Where sibling consanguinamory isn’t still banned by law, siblings can have a wedding ceremony and live the married life, although under discrimination, as their government will not recognize their marriage and they will not get treated equally.



Sweden will legally marry half siblings under certain circumstances. I’m not aware of any country that currently has more progressive laws or laws as progressive as Sweden.

Some siblings report that they have been able to get a marriage license in places like the US based on the ignorance of the authorities, such as the siblings being born in different states or countries and/or not having a shared parent listed on their birth certificates. However, if the laws of that location do not recognize sibling marriages as valid, or if consanguinamory is illegal in that jurisdiction, a marriage license is a potential piece of evidence that can be used in criminal prosecution, and that’s sad.

If siblings want to get married, they should be free to marry. Inequality, based on prejudice, is counterproductive. All over the world, there are siblings living as spouses; there always has been, some with the knowledge and support of friends and family, some hiding the full nature of their relationship. Sooner or later, full marriage equality will be in place in more progressive places, allowing siblings to marry without discrimination or fear of prosecution. Let’s make it happen sooner rather than later.

This question may be asked many different ways. Can siblings get married? Can siblings marry? Can a brother and sister get married? Can a brother and brother get married? Can a sister and sister get married? Can a sister marry her brother? Can a brother marry his sister? Can a sister marry her sister? Can a brother marry his brother? Can you marry your sibling? Can you marry your brother? Can you marry your sister? Can two sisters marry? Can two brothers marry?

Sunday, March 2, 2014

Ten Myths About Sibling Consanguinamory

I’ve noticed some common myths expressed about sibling consanguinamory. In this instance, by consanguinamory, I mean everything from curious exploration and experimenting to erotic romance, including masturbating in front of each other, erotic kissing, sexual touching or rubbing, oral sex, intercourse, etc.

This entry is NOT addressing molestation, assault, or abuse.

I’m referring to adult siblings, or minor siblings who are close in age, engaging in mutual affection or experimentation, without coercion, force, or intimidation. It may be two siblings alone, it may be three or more siblings, or it may be two or more siblings involved together with one or more people outside of the immediate family.

These myths need to be addressed, because they perpetuate inequality, discrimination, hardship, confusion, stigmas, ignorance, and fear.

Myth #1 “It doesn’t happen” or “It happens very rarely” or “I don’t know anyone who has done this.” Just because one person hasn’t been involved or doesn’t remember being involved with sibling doesn’t mean it isn’t happening with others. It is, and it always has. Ongoing sexual relationships between siblings are common enough that everyone knows someone who is, or has been in, such a relationship, and far more siblings than that have had an encounter or experimented, explored, or played doctor. Reality: We all know people who've been involved, whether we know it or not.

Myth #2 “Siblings don’t have sex, rather it is always that one sibling abuses another” or ”It only happens between siblings who have been abused or neglected” or “It always means they need therapy.” At the heart of this is myth is that, because of the dynamics between siblings, one sibling can’t consent to have sex with another. This ignores siblings who weren’t raised together, but even with siblings who were raised together, the claim that one can’t consent to sex with another is an unsupported assertion based on personal aversion, a personal history of abuse, ignorance, or even the absurd notion that females don’t want or enjoy sex. If an 18-year-old woman can legally consent to group sex with three male cage fighters who are strangers to her, or consent to be the mistress of a billionaire with a spouse and children, the President of the United States, or a someone who rented a room in her childhood home and was present for her entire childhood, how can we be consistent in saying that she can't consent to sex with her twin brother or sister? When it comes to minors, most family therapists don’t consider it abuse if minors close in age experiment or have sex; it is considered mutual experimentation (think teenagers who are four or fewer years apart). Abuse and sex are two different things. Sex does happen in some families. Unfortunately, so does abuse. But they aren’t the same thing. Reality: Some siblings do willingly share this at some point in their lives, and may not need therapy at all.

Myth #3. “It only happens as youthful experimentation. Adults don't do this.” While such contact is more common among siblings living together in their youth, it may continue throughout their lives or be initiated during adulthood: everything from while they’re at college to during their senior years. It can happen when siblings are introduced or reunited (Genetic Sexual Attraction,) during a time of personal discovery or experimentation, while one siblings cares for another through an illness or after an accident, during times of grieving, after a breakup or divorce or death of a spouse/lover… anytime, really. Reality: Some siblings share this throughout their lives, some starting late in life.

Myth #4 “It is unnatural.” This myth is not supported either in human history or in other species. While it is very common for people who spent their childhoods in the same residence together, whether genetically related or not, to develop a suppression of sexual attraction to each other (this has been described as the Westermarck Effect), this does not happen to everyone, and siblings who aren’t raised together are often attracted to each other; studies reveal most people are attracted to people who look like them. Reality: In many cases, nothing is more natural.

Myth #5. “It is wrong” or “It is destructive” or “It needs to be stopped” or “They won’t be able to go on to have normal lives.” Different people are going to have different moral guidelines about sex, but sibling consanguinamory is not considered wrong by everyone or all cultures. In many cases, it is advantageous compared to having the siblings involved with others. Nor is there anything inherently destructive about it, but rather some find it constructive. The only way to stop it is to have constant, direct supervision of the siblings 24/7/365. This, however, is needless. For most, the involvement is for a season and it will pass. For others, it will last a lifetime. Either way, there’s no good reason to try to stop it. The only hindrance to having a “normal life” for siblings who continue together is the bigotry of others. Reality: For some, it is the best of all possibilities, it is wonderful and constructive, and they lead perfectly normal, even unusually good lives.

Myth #6 “Only loners, losers, freaks, or ugly people do this” or “It only happens in rural, southern (in the US), poor, uneducated families.” 
Reality: Sibling consanguinamory happens in every demographic and in every part of the US and the world. There are attractive, outgoing, popular, successful, wealthy, educated people who have been, or are still involved with a sibling.

Myth #7 “If they have children, they will be deformed” or “It causes birth defects.” Incest, if it results in a birth, does not cause birth defects in and of itself. Most children born to close relatives are healthy. You know some, whether you know it or not and whether they know their own true parentage or not. Birth defects can be the result of injury during pregnancy, substances ingested during pregnancy, environmental factors, or genetic problems. It is the last one that people tend to be thinking of, usually, when they repeat this myth. That’s because when both genetic parents carry the same genetic problem, it may be demonstrated in the children. However, this can happen with parents who aren’t closely related, too. Reality: Most children born to siblings are healthy.

Myth #8 “It always ruins sibling relationships” or “A person needs a nonsexual relationship with their sibling.” Many siblings report that consaguinamory made them much closer, even if they have ceased that part of their relationship. As far as someone needing a nonsexual relationship with a sibling… that would mean that people who are only children (having no siblings) would suffer, when the studies say otherwise. Also, if someone has more than one sibling, that usually means they’ll still have a nonsexual relationship with the other. Reality: For many siblings, consanguinamory made their relationship much better, and they relate to other people better as a result.

Myth #9 “It is illegal everywhere.”
No, it isn’t. But where it is, the laws should be changed. Some people say such laws are needed to prevent societal collapse due to everyone making mutant babies with their siblings. As already explained, most children born to siblings are healthy. Even so, sibling consanguinamory and reproduction are two different things. In most places where consanguinamory is legally banned, it is entirely legal for brothers and sisters to have genetic children together through artificial insemination. It is entirely legal for someone with Huntington’s Disease to have children, even though the odds are dramatically higher than with a random pair of siblings that the children will have a debilitating disease. We can also look at places where it is legal for brothers and sisters to have sex and children together, such as Spain, Portugal, Rhode Island, and New Jersey. Has there been a crisis as a result in any of those places? (Snooki excluded.) Furthermore, the person who says anti-consanguinamory laws are needed to prevent widespread inbreeding makes it sound like everyone wants to have babies with their sibling, and the only thing holding them back is the law (perhaps there is something they want to tell us?) MOST people will not have intercourse with or marry their siblings, and even many siblings who do will not have genetic children together. Another part of this myth is that laws against consanguinamory prevent abuse. Abuse is illegal regardless of consanguinamory laws, and criminalizing consensual sex actually makes it more difficult to get victims and witnesses to cooperate in the prosecuting of abusers. Reality: Sibling consanguinamory is legal in several US states and many developed countries, but where stupid laws still apply, those unjust laws must go.

Myth #10 “Siblings don’t need the freedom to marry.” This is often augmented with “because they are already family.” But siblings who are sharing their lives as spouses often do need the same rights, benefits, and protections as any other spouses, and there’s no good reason to deny them their fundamental right to marry. Also, marriage automatically provides for next-of-kin status, which is especially important when there is some discord between one or both siblings and other siblings or their parents or grown children. For example, if brothers Adam & Steve have been living as spouses for years and Steve winds up in a coma in the hospital, their estranged, bigoted parents would likely be able to usurp Adam’s rights to make decisions. Finally, in relationships initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction, they might not be considered family under the law, although in a loathsome double-standard, they may still be subject to discriminatory laws based on their genetic relation. Reality: An adult should be free to marry any and all consenting adults.

In Conclusion


There are siblings who are together right now, providing each other love, comfort, support, or their first sexual experience in a safe and reassuring environment. The biggest problem with sibling consanguinamory seems to be the prejudice and sex-negative attitudes of others. In most cases, trying to force consanguinamorous siblings apart only makes things worse. It can be a mutually beneficial way of bonding, expressing their love for each other, learning, and discovering their sexuality; it may even be a beautiful, lifelong romance.

Let’s not let ignorance cause needless concern or repression.

For further reading:

Common Objections Answered

What Family and Friends Should Know

Case Studies of Consanguinamorous Relationships

How Common is Consensual Incest?

Why Is Incest Illegal Anywhere?

Genetic Sexual Attraction

Consensual Incest FAQ

If You Are Considering It

myths lies misconceptions the truth about real true sibling brothers sisters brother-sister sister-sister brother-brother consanguineous sex incest lovemaking love marriage


Saturday, February 15, 2014

Help for Friends and Family of Consanguinamorous Siblings

Our friend Gott has done great service and had given this blog permission to repost what was just posted on Tumblr. I recommend following that Tumblr blog. What is below is all Gott's work...

(Here is a PDF version of the full text)

This is for the benefit of friends or family of romantically involved siblings, who may have recently discovered their secret. Though I’ve used “incest” in the title, I won’t continue to use the terms “incest” or “incestuous,” I will use “consanguinamory” and “consanguineous” (pronounced “con-sang-gwin-am-or-ee” and “con-sang-gwin-ee-us). “Incest” is too loaded a word for intelligent discussion, and I only ever use it for sexual abuse. If I say “consanguinamory”, assume I am talking about consensual sex. (I’m going to assume that the couple is opposite-sex, but most of this also applies for same-sex couples.) Remember: there’s a difference between love and abuse.
This might be long, but bear with me. All of your concerns are about to be addressed. If you truly love them, you will have the patience to read this.


- INTRODUCTION

First, stop and take a breath. I know that this must be a lot to take in. I seriously doubt that you’ve ever sat down to consider the possibility of this happening. I don’t expect you to be calm, but I do expect you to care enough about their well-being to seriously consider what I’m about to say.

Did you discover them accidentally? If so, talk to them individually – with an open mind – and make sure that there was no coercion. Ignore the taboo nature of what you just found out. If you have no evidence of coercion or manipulation, then do not try to project abuse where there is none, and do not force them to internalize your own sense of what’s “taboo.” Why would you ever want to burden them with so much unnecessary guilt and shame? Talk to them together, and get the story from them, calmly. See how they act together. Remember to treat them with respect, especially if they’re already adults; it’s what you would want for yourself.

Did they come out to you on their own? Then there’s even less chance that there was any coercion involved. In fact, coming out to you is one of the bravest and most trusting gifts they could ever give you. Not only is their love extremely taboo, but even if they are adults, in most places on Earth they could be thrown in jail, possibly for the rest of their lives. You could get them thrown in jail. Every person they tell is a potential threat who could ruin their lives forever, getting them locked up for years and permanently placed on the sex-offender registry. And yet, despite all that, they told you. They could have lied – it wouldn’t have been easy, but they could have – but they told you. However much you thought they trusted and loved you, they just proved that their true trust and love is greater.



If they say that it’s consensual, and there’s no evidence it isn’t – especially if they came forward on their own – how can you still assume that no person could consent to it? How can you possibly disrespect their intelligence and agency so much? Have you ever had any other reason to doubt that they are of sound mind and soul? Then why should this one thing counteract years of personal experience? Did they hurt anyone? Of course not. If you think there must be something wrong, it’s because that’s the story society has been spoon-feeding you.

Consider: if one of them was adopted – if they weren’t genetically related – would you still feel as uncomfortable as you do? Because if you wouldn’t, then there’s no good reason for your discomfort now; socially, whether adopted or not, their relationship would be the same. If they weren’t even raised together, then in no way are they family, though they are blood relatives. Ignore for a moment the particular, taboo nature of their relationship. Just consider them as individual people. If your daughter/sister/friend was dating a man like her brother, knowing everything you do about him, would you be displeased, or happy? If your son/brother/friend were dating a woman like his sister, knowing everything you do about her, would you be upset, or glad?

If you are their parent, unless you’ve done an awful job of raising them, my guess is that, before you found out, you were quite proud of them. Well, they’re the same people now, the same people who made you proud. Wouldn’t you want your daughter to date a man who made you as proud as your son? Wouldn’t you want your son to date a woman who made you as proud as your daughter? Aren’t they more to you, and to each other, than just their genes?

- MENTAL HEALTH
 
Society has taught you to feel a certain way about consanguinamory. It was handed to you, and you accepted it without much thought. You’ve probably never met anyone who was openly sexually involved with a close family member. This has allowed you to go around without seriously considering what such a relationship might look like, how it could work, and how you should feel about it. It has allowed you to absorb the limited perspective put out by the media, giving you a narrow, stereotyped view of what’s possible. You have been listening to only one side of the story your whole life.

Just because you don’t know that you’ve met such a couple before, doesn’t mean that you haven’t met one. In fact, as you follow your family tree further and further back in time, the probability that you will find at least one consanguineous couple approaches 100%. Self-reported surveys have found that as much as 10% of college students have had consensual sexual contact with a sibling (mostly childhood experimentation). (If we extrapolate this to the whole population, this equates to about 30 million people in the U.S.) The fact that a couple is related tells you exactly nothing about what their relationship is like, nor whether it is consenting or not, nor whether it is fulfilling or not. Each of those things is independent of their blood relationship.

The cultural stereotype of such relationships is that they are dysfunctional, self-destructive, and abusive; anyone who willingly participates must somehow be mentally ill. Besides this view being incredibly condescending, it also has no meaningful basis. What is considered “healthy” and “unhealthy” changes, and is very subjective. On what standard are we to decide what constitutes mental “illness?” Is it that they’re doing something they know society disapproves of? I don’t think any reasonable person thinks we should use the preconceptions of the majority to decide what constitutes mental illness. It must, then, be that the behavior is self-destructive, or causes them to destroy the lives of others.

Do you see anything indicating that those things are happening? Aside from their experience of bigotry, do they seem unusually disturbed? Are they lashing out at themselves, at each other, or at you? Are they unable to operate normally in a social environment? If not, then you have no reason to think they are any less mentally healthy than before. In fact, their love may have made them healthier, by bringing them fulfillment and peace.
“From a scientific perspective, we do not know what constitutes normal childhood sexual behavior or feelings. […] Sexual behavior varies drastically among different groups of people due to their moral beliefs, values, social class, and culture. Sexual feelings and behaviors also vary widely among youth due to individual differences and variations in development. […] Some of the behaviors mentioned above are harmful. However, many are socially unacceptable because they would be classified as immoral or indecent by many people, not because they are harmful.
As I’ve said, you’ve probably already met a consanguineous couple. They couldn’t have stood out as any more dysfunctional than the average couple, or you would have become suspicious that something was wrong. Unfortunately, prejudice keeps people in the closet, which perpetuates ignorance, which itself perpetuates prejudice. You have been given the rare opportunity to examine your own assumptions, and break your own cycle of prejudice. Most people have never gotten that chance.

The “pedophile” label has long been used to brand sexual minorities as deviants, as threats to society and to our children. Homosexuality has long been heavily attacked as pedophilic, and in the past when people had limited experience with open, healthy same-sex relationships, they believed the propaganda. Now that so many homosexual couples are out in the open, we realize that there is a clear difference between the consenting majority, and the predatory minority.

Even today, opponents of legal rights for homosexuals try to brand the gay rights agenda as pro-pedophilia. There is a homophobic Neo-Nazi “vigilante” group in Russia called “Occupy Pedophilia,” but it isn’t pedophiles they’re targeting: they target young gay men. They go around torturing them, sometimes to death, and use “fighting pedophilia” as their implicit justification.
It is the same for consanguinamory. The vast majority of cases that come to light are the most unhealthy. (In the previously quoted summary of studies, only 30% of respondents answered that their reaction to sexual contact with a sibling was “negative.” Of that 30%, 25% were non-consensual. The remaining 5% may be due to stigma and shame.) Those in healthy, fulfilling relationships never come forward, and we only see them in the news when they are caught and thrown in jail.

The consanguinamorous are lumped in with a predatory minority, and because of the closet, the public buys it. Just because these siblings love each other, it doesn’t mean that they want to have sex with any other relatives, and it doesn’t mean that they are pedophiles. Despite the propaganda, their relationship does not automatically mean they are abusive and emotionally damaged.

Besides, so what if every other consanguineous relationship in history has been abusive and emotionally damaging? We consider people as individuals, and don’t punish them based on the sins of others. Even in murder trials, attenuating circumstances are considered. If murderers get the benefit of the doubt, if murderers get to be treated as individuals, then why not these siblings? Even if every other relationship like theirs was damaging, that doesn’t automatically mean theirs is. If they are the only loving, consenting blood-related couple in the world, then that’s all the more reason to treat them with respect and dignity.

- ABNORMALITY

However, they are not the only siblings to have a consenting, loving relationship. It is not some newfangled idea. Societies’ attitudes towards various sexual relationships – especially familial – have changed all throughout history. They are in illustrious company, among some of the greatest people to ever live. These are just a handful of the examples known, and there are certainly many more lost to history.
Not only are they in glorious past company, but in beautiful present company as well. In the past, only royals and aristocrats could break society’s rules and marry whom they wished. Why should the right to love whom they wish to love be denied to the common man or woman? Romantic sibling relationships are much more common than most realize. Many of these relationships, when allowed to flourish, grow into something astoundingly beautiful.

- FORCING THEM APART

You may wish that they would just find other people. There are plenty of non-blood-related fish in the sea. If they did that, it would certainly make things easier for you, wouldn’t it? You may even be able to convince yourself that it would somehow be easier for them, too. Well, why should they find other people?

Do you have someone you love? If so, why don’t you find someone else? It’s easy to see that it’s not so easy. If you knew a bisexual man who was dating another man, would you tell him that, because he has “more acceptable options,” that he must date a woman? The “homosexuality isn’t a choice” argument is strawmaning: it serves as a nice talking point, but that’s not ultimately why society now feels that homophobia is wrong. We’ve come to understand that love doesn’t always fit the conventions proscribed by society; that it is morally wrong to police people’s sex lives and love lives; that society is better off when we nurture people’s natural love. A bisexual person may be capable of loving someone of the opposite sex, but that doesn’t mean they will. No-one chooses who they fall in love with. It is no different for siblings in love.

Besides, have you stopped to consider the consequences of forcing them to break up? People think only of the consequences of letting siblings stay together, but not of destroying their relationship. Consider: how will breaking them up, causing them misery and pain, shaming them, and policing them make their relationship “healthy?” Even if you think it’s “unhealthy” now, their relationship is guaranteed to be much worse after that kind of trauma. They’ll remember what they had, they’ll remember the pain of its loss, they’ll remember the judgment, they’ll remember the shame, and they will probably know that they still love each other. What kind of family dinners do you expect with that kind of angst floating around? They may in fact choose to never see each other again, because it would be too painful.

What if they shun your judgment and shaming? Many consanguinamorous couples, when facing judgment and intervention by friends and family, break off all ties with them for the sake of preserving their own relationship with each other. If you really do care about them, and also want to be part of their lives, learn to at least tolerate their love. Better that you have a presence in their lives. Don’t force them to choose between family and friends, and the love of their lives.

- RELATIONSHIP INSTABILITY

Now, there is one legitimate concern regarding consanguinamory: won’t introducing sex and romance destabilize the family dynamic? What if it ultimately doesn’t work out? Won’t that make it difficult to go back to being just family for them? The short answer: not necessarily.

Now for the long answer. First of all, yes, it might, but many people pursue love at the risk of existing relationships, and we don’t begrudge them their pursuit of happiness, even if risky. No truly good things in life are gained without risk. As a culture, we even romanticize such risky pursuits of love. I would argue that, aside from the threat of social stigma breaking them apart, they are actually less likely to break up than other couples. Assuming they were raised together, they’ve already had decades to get to know each other, most of it probably non-sexually. Imagine if a man and woman lived together for sixteen or more years, without any sex at all, before they decided to be romantically involved. We would all consider that comically conservative, and yet that is the kind of experience these siblings have had.

Even when romances do end explosively, they can still go back to normal, given time and space. There are couples that have broken up very dramatically, but after having a couple years to themselves are able to go back to being friends. Even if these siblings do ultimately break up, given all of their prior experience as siblings, the common familial relationships, etc., they should be much more likely to eventually get back to being friendly than non-related couples. They would have more motivation to.

Remember too, not all romances end explosively. Some marriages end after over a decade, on amicable terms. If a relationship ends, the destructiveness of its end is related directly to the destructiveness of the relationship itself. What destroys a relationship in such a way? Lying, abuse, lack of communication, emotional unavailability, bad conflict resolution skills, lack of respect, lack of appreciation, etc.

Since you know the couple, you should have some idea whether they have problems with any of these things in their lives. If you are their parent, then you are in a unique position to ensure that they both treat each other with respect, empathy, and honesty. You have an interest in their relationship being healthy in the long term, and you also have the power to help that happen.

Don’t assume that their relationship as siblings and their relationship as lovers are mutually exclusive. It’s a common, false assumption that they must be, but the personal testimony of people in such relationships refutes it. I doubt they fell in love because they were bad siblings, but more likely it grew out of an especially close sibling relationship. We all acknowledge that people can serve multiple roles in a relationship, being both best friends and lovers. Well, so it is that they are best friends, lovers, and siblings. Each one of those relationships strengthens the others: their relationship becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

Even if familial and romantic love were mutually exclusive, who are you to decide which of those options is best for them? So they happened to be born as siblings. Why must that chain them the rest of their lives? Maybe they will be better as lovers than as siblings. As consenting adults, they get to decide which kind of relationship makes them happiest.

- HEALTH OF THEIR CHILDREN

Assuming you’re okay with all of the points I’ve just made, you may still have one objection: what if they have babies? This is one of the last refuges for those who can’t quite justify banning consanguinamory, but still want to. After all, what about all the stories of monster babies? Well, there are actually very few of those stories, they are an over-publicized minority, and that stereotype goes against actual scientific and historical evidence.

These siblings may already have a child. They may be pregnant. They may be planning on having a child in the future. You might have even found out about it because a pregnancy or genetic test of a child brought it to light. Once again, I must ask you to calm down, and listen carefully to what I’m about to say. The feelings you have are coming from a lot of cultural baggage and stereotyping, again. I won’t deny that the risks are higher than for the general population, but they’re not nearly as bad as you hear, and slightly elevated risks are never any reason to curtail a woman’s basic rights.

One hears an ingrained, “But it’s unnatural!” argument quite a bit. “Inbreeding” is not “unnatural,” as many would claim. Many species engage in consanguineous mating in some form or another, and it can have both positive and negative effects, depending on the circumstances. Sometimes, species even evolve a resistance to problems from “inbreeding.” In nature, as in society, things are always more complicated than a blanket judgment can capture.

If we should force people to only have babies with people that are distantly related from them, for eugenic reasons, then why stop at prohibiting consanguinamory? Why not forbid all sex between people of the same race? Genetic similarity within a population can still be great enough that genetic diseases are passed on – just look at Tay-Sachs. Of course the idea is ridiculous, but it just follows the logic of policing women’s uteri to minimize genetic disease.
“[…] [S]cientists have rejected the explanation that [the] incest taboo is a social mechanism that reduces the risk of congenital birth defects. One of the reasons is, findings have concluded that recessive or defect-carrying genes in a population may increase or decrease in instances of inbreeding. The frequency of birth defects depends on the availability and effectiveness of healthcare in a population. A recent genetic report also stated that children of unrelated parents have a 3% to 4% risk of having serious birth defects, while the offspring of first cousins have only a slightly higher risk of about 4% to 7%.”
We can extrapolate from this that for siblings, it is at least 7%, and probably no higher than 10%. This is lower than the risk of birth defects for women over the age of 35, which is 12.5%.
I have also written about how new scientific discoveries are illuminating why, over many generations, having children with blood-relatives can have an effect on a population. It’s not what most people think, it’s not as threatening as most people think, and more importantly, we may soon be able to fix it.

Whether considering the genome, or the epigenome, a single generation can be completely inconsequential. All of the risks are population-wide risks: the chances that a random sibling couple would have a child with defects are that high, but these two siblings are not a random couple. They are a specific couple, with individual genomes. Their family history of disease is specific to their family. Those things tell you much more about their chances than some randomized study. They may, in fact, have a lower probability of defects than the general population.

Either way, we do not, as a society, agree with eugenics, and for good reason. We do not espouse the views of racists who spent decades sterilizing the poor and black in the U.S. They’ll have to care for the child, it is her body, it is their risk to take. It doesn’t matter whether you approve of it on a “massive scale” (which wouldn’t happen without society forcing people), all that matters is whether it would be okay for this specific couple.

You’re probably also worried about how the child will deal with the taboo nature of its parents’ relationship. Isn’t it better that a child grow up in a normal family? This is the kind of reasoning that punishes all sexual minorities for the bigotry of the majority. Not only do they have to deal with the derision of the masses, but now they have to give up their own children because of that derision? No enlightened person in this day and age would argue that we should take the children of same-sex couples away from them and have them raised in “normal” families. It would be barbarous, and yet there are homophobic reactionaries who argue against same-sex adoption with a similar argument.

We should never let the bigotry of others police our families. A child can learn to deal with ostracism, as long as they have a good support network at home, but no child can learn to live without experiencing love. Isn’t it better that this child grows up in an “abnormal” household that loves them dearly, than a “normal” one that doesn’t?

- CONCLUSION

Here are refutations of many arguments people make against sibling consanguinamory. It’s a good addition to what I have just said. This quote from the article is especially apropos:
“There are siblings who are together right now, providing each other love, comfort, support, or their first sexual experience in a safe and reassuring environment. The biggest problem with sibling consanguinamory seems to be the prejudice and sex-negative attitudes of others. In most cases, trying to force consanguinamorous siblings apart only makes things worse. It can be a mutually beneficial way of bonding, expressing their love for each other, learning, and discovering their sexuality; it may even be a beautiful, lifelong romance. Let’s not let ignorance cause needless concern or repression.
Don’t be ashamed of changing your mind. Other people have had to walk the same intellectual and emotional journey. Don’t be ashamed that you were once wrong. Better to grow as a person than cling to terrible beliefs out of a misplaced sense of embarrassment and ego. Let yourself grow, for the sake of your child/sibling/friend. You may think you have nothing left to learn, but everyone can learn something, and everyone can teach something. This is their moment to teach you.
Here are some extra resources:

Sunday, December 8, 2013

Frequently Asked Question: Can Siblings Marry?

The following is based on my understanding. I’m not at attorney and this should not be considered legal advice.

Can siblings marry?

I’m not aware of any government that will currently marry full-blood siblings or recognize a marriage of full-blood siblings; rather, if it was discovered by the authorities after an official marriage was formed that the spouses were, in fact, siblings, the marriage would be dissolved and considered invalid. If the spouses knew they were siblings when they married, they would be subject to prosecution. If they discovered the genetic relationship after getting married, they would have to file for an annulment or dissolution or risk prosecution.

Where sibling consanguinamory isn’t still banned by law, siblings can have a wedding ceremony and live the married life, although under discrimination, as their government will not recognize their marriage and they will not get treated equally.



Sweden will legally marry half siblings under certain circumstances. I’m not aware of any country that currently has more progressive laws or laws as progressive as Sweden.

Some siblings report that they have been able to get a marriage license in places like the US based on the ignorance of the authorities, such as the siblings being born in different states or countries and/or not having a shared parent listed on their birth certificates. However, if the laws of that location do not recognize sibling marriages as valid, or if consanguinamory is illegal in that jurisdiction, a marriage license is a potential piece of evidence that can be used in criminal prosecution, and that’s sad.

If siblings want to get married, they should be free to marry. Inequality, based on prejudice, is counterproductive. All over the world, there are siblings living as spouses; there always has been, some with the knowledge and support of friends and family, some hiding the full nature of their relationship. Sooner or later, full marriage equality will be in place in more progressive places, allowing siblings to marry without discrimination or fear of prosecution. Let’s make it happen sooner rather than later.

This question may be asked many different ways. Can siblings get married? Can siblings marry? Can a brother and sister get married? Can a brother and brother get married? Can a sister and sister get married? Can a sister marry her brother? Can a brother marry his sister? Can a sister marry her sister? Can a brother marry his brother? Can you marry your sibling? Can you marry your brother? Can you marry your sister? Can two sisters marry? Can two brothers marry?

Friday, November 29, 2013

Ten Myths About Sibling Consanguinamory

I’ve noticed some common myths expressed about sibling consanguinamory. In this instance, by consanguinamory, I mean everything from curious exploration and experimenting to erotic romance, including masturbating in front of each other, erotic kissing, sexual touching or rubbing, oral sex, intercourse, etc.

This entry is NOT addressing molestation, assault, or abuse.

I’m referring to adult siblings, or minor siblings who are close in age, engaging in mutual affection or experimentation, without coercion, force, or intimidation. It may be two siblings alone, it may be three or more siblings, or it may be two or more siblings involved together with one or more people outside of the immediate family.

These myths need to be addressed, because they perpetuate inequality, discrimination, hardship, confusion, stigmas, ignorance, and fear.

Myth #1 “It doesn’t happen” or “It happens very rarely” or “I don’t know anyone who has done this.” Just because one person hasn’t been involved or doesn’t remember being involved with sibling doesn’t mean it isn’t happening with others. It is, and it always has. Ongoing sexual relationships between siblings are common enough that everyone knows someone who is, or has been in, such a relationship, and far more siblings than that have had an encounter or experimented, explored, or played doctor. Reality: We all know people who've been involved, whether we know it or not.

Myth #2 “Siblings don’t have sex, rather it is always that one sibling abuses another” or ”It only happens between siblings who have been abused or neglected” or “It always means they need therapy.” At the heart of this is myth is that, because of the dynamics between siblings, one sibling can’t consent to have sex with another. This ignores siblings who weren’t raised together, but even with siblings who were raised together, the claim that one can’t consent to sex with another is an unsupported assertion based on personal aversion, a personal history of abuse, ignorance, or even the absurd notion that females don’t want or enjoy sex. If an 18-year-old woman can legally consent to group sex with three male cage fighters who are strangers to her, or consent to be the mistress of a billionaire with a spouse and children, the President of the United States, or a someone who rented a room in her childhood home and was present for her entire childhood, how can we be consistent in saying that she can't consent to sex with her twin brother or sister? When it comes to minors, most family therapists don’t consider it abuse if minors close in age experiment or have sex; it is considered mutual experimentation (think teenagers who are four or fewer years apart). Abuse and sex are two different things. Sex does happen in some families. Unfortunately, so does abuse. But they aren’t the same thing. Reality: Some siblings do willingly share this at some point in their lives, and may not need therapy at all.

Myth #3. “It only happens as youthful experimentation. Adults don't do this.” While such contact is more common among siblings living together in their youth, it may continue throughout their lives or be initiated during adulthood: everything from while they’re at college to during their senior years. It can happen when siblings are introduced or reunited (Genetic Sexual Attraction,) during a time of personal discovery or experimentation, while one siblings cares for another through an illness or after an accident, during times of grieving, after a breakup or divorce or death of a spouse/lover… anytime, really. Reality: Some siblings share this throughout their lives, some starting late in life.

Myth #4 “It is unnatural.” This myth is not supported either in human history or in other species. While it is very common for people who spent their childhoods in the same residence together, whether genetically related or not, to develop a suppression of sexual attraction to each other (this has been described as the Westermarck Effect), this does not happen to everyone, and siblings who aren’t raised together are often attracted to each other; studies reveal most people are attracted to people who look like them. Reality: In many cases, nothing is more natural.

Myth #5. “It is wrong” or “It is destructive” or “It needs to be stopped” or “They won’t be able to go on to have normal lives.” Different people are going to have different moral guidelines about sex, but sibling consanguinamory is not considered wrong by everyone or all cultures. In many cases, it is advantageous compared to having the siblings involved with others. Nor is there anything inherently destructive about it, but rather some find it constructive. The only way to stop it is to have constant, direct supervision of the siblings 24/7/365. This, however, is needless. For most, the involvement is for a season and it will pass. For others, it will last a lifetime. Either way, there’s no good reason to try to stop it. The only hindrance to having a “normal life” for siblings who continue together is the bigotry of others. Reality: For some, it is the best of all possibilities, it is wonderful and constructive, and they lead perfectly normal, even unusually good lives.

Myth #6 “Only loners, losers, freaks, or ugly people do this” or “It only happens in rural, southern (in the US), poor, uneducated families.” 
Reality: Sibling consanguinamory happens in every demographic and in every part of the US and the world. There are attractive, outgoing, popular, successful, wealthy, educated people who have been, or are still involved with a sibling.

Myth #7 “If they have children, they will be deformed” or “It causes birth defects.” Incest, if it results in a birth, does not cause birth defects in and of itself. Most children born to close relatives are healthy. You know some, whether you know it or not and whether they know their own true parentage or not. Birth defects can be the result of injury during pregnancy, substances ingested during pregnancy, environmental factors, or genetic problems. It is the last one that people tend to be thinking of, usually, when they repeat this myth. That’s because when both genetic parents carry the same genetic problem, it may be demonstrated in the children. However, this can happen with parents who aren’t closely related, too. Reality: Most children born to siblings are healthy.

Myth #8 “It always ruins sibling relationships” or “A person needs a nonsexual relationship with their sibling.” Many siblings report that consaguinamory made them much closer, even if they have ceased that part of their relationship. As far as someone needing a nonsexual relationship with a sibling… that would mean that people who are only children (having no siblings) would suffer, when the studies say otherwise. Also, if someone has more than one sibling, that usually means they’ll still have a nonsexual relationship with the other. Reality: For many siblings, consanguinamory made their relationship much better, and they relate to other people better as a result.

Myth #9 “It is illegal everywhere.”
No, it isn’t. But where it is, the laws should be changed. Some people say such laws are needed to prevent societal collapse due to everyone making mutant babies with their siblings. As already explained, most children born to siblings are healthy. Even so, sibling consanguinamory and reproduction are two different things. In most places where consanguinamory is legally banned, it is entirely legal for brothers and sisters to have genetic children together through artificial insemination. It is entirely legal for someone with Huntington’s Disease to have children, even though the odds are dramatically higher than with a random pair of siblings that the children will have a debilitating disease. We can also look at places where it is legal for brothers and sisters to have sex and children together, such as Spain, Portugal, Rhode Island, and New Jersey. Has there been a crisis as a result in any of those places? (Snooki excluded.) Furthermore, the person who says anti-consanguinamory laws are needed to prevent widespread inbreeding makes it sound like everyone wants to have babies with their sibling, and the only thing holding them back is the law (perhaps there is something they want to tell us?) MOST people will not have intercourse with or marry their siblings, and even many siblings who do will not have genetic children together. Another part of this myth is that laws against consanguinamory prevent abuse. Abuse is illegal regardless of consanguinamory laws, and criminalizing consensual sex actually makes it more difficult to get victims and witnesses to cooperate in the prosecuting of abusers. Reality: Sibling consanguinamory is legal in several US states and many developed countries, but where stupid laws still apply, those unjust laws must go.

Myth #10 “Siblings don’t need the freedom to marry.” This is often augmented with “because they are already family.” But siblings who are sharing their lives as spouses often do need the same rights, benefits, and protections as any other spouses, and there’s no good reason to deny them their fundamental right to marry. Also, marriage automatically provides for next-of-kin status, which is especially important when there is some discord between one or both siblings and other siblings or their parents or grown children. For example, if brothers Adam & Steve have been living as spouses for years and Steve winds up in a coma in the hospital, their estranged, bigoted parents would likely be able to usurp Adam’s rights to make decisions. Finally, in relationships initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction, they might not be considered family under the law, although in a loathsome double-standard, they may still be subject to discriminatory laws based on their genetic relation. Reality: An adult should be free to marry any and all consenting adults.

In Conclusion


There are siblings who are together right now, providing each other love, comfort, support, or their first sexual experience in a safe and reassuring environment. The biggest problem with sibling consanguinamory seems to be the prejudice and sex-negative attitudes of others. In most cases, trying to force consanguinamorous siblings apart only makes things worse. It can be a mutually beneficial way of bonding, expressing their love for each other, learning, and discovering their sexuality; it may even be a beautiful, lifelong romance.

Let’s not let ignorance cause needless concern or repression.

For further reading:

Common Objections Answered

What Family and Friends Should Know

Case Studies of Consanguinamorous Relationships

How Common is Consensual Incest?

Why Is Incest Illegal Anywhere?

Genetic Sexual Attraction

Consensual Incest FAQ

If You Are Considering It

myths lies misconceptions the truth about real true sibling brothers sisters brother-sister sister-sister brother-brother consanguineous sex incest lovemaking love marriage


Monday, June 10, 2013

A Tumblr Supporting Consanguinamory

You can find a lot of interesting stuff on Tumblr. You have to wonder if that's going to change moving forward now that it is being swallowed up by Yahoo. (Youngsters: look up "GeoCities.") For now, you can find things like Gay Brotherly Love, which is relevant to this blog. (For those of you unfamiliar with Tumblr, you can find much there that is NOT SAFE FOR WORK, so be warned. Here's what GBL is about...

Friday, June 7, 2013

Canada Still Denies Marriage Equality

While Canada has the limited same-sex freedom to marry, not only has a B.C. court recently rejected the polygamous freedom to marry, the country of Canada as a whole is still denying the freedom to marry to some same-sex couples. Corneilius is in such a relationship, and generously agreed to be interviewed for this blog. Even though English isn’t his first language, I think you’ll agree he communicates well their love, affection, and hopes. [Note: I am bumping up this old entry because it is still as relevant as ever.]

***

FME: Describe your background.

Corneilius: We were both born sort of on the outskirts of a small Russian ”hick” town and grew up together in a large family. The two of us and our grandfather were the only males. We had a few sisters, an aunt, and our mother in the same house with us. After our grandfather died, we moved to a Canada. Now, we live in a small town again.

We even shared a bed for a good amount of time after [my brother] grew out of his crib. I am older than him by two and a half years and we’re now in our mid-twenties. During our childhood, we were a little more close than most of the brothers we knew. We had almost that "Twin" quality. We were always seen together. Probably because we had a bit of a different view on life than most. For example, our grandfather taught us about forest trolls and it took us ages for our belief in them to die down. But we still spend as much time as we can in forested areas. Probably to remind us of that time in life.




You are full blood brothers?

Yes.


How would you describe the nature of your relationship? Boyfriends? Best friends? Husbands? Soulmates? All of those?

We're many of those things. We have the natural life bond that brothers have. He is my brother. But more than anything, he's definitely my soulmate and my best friend. We do absolutely everything together and never get tired of each other. Perhaps it's the practice of growing up together. But honestly, aside from the constant hate from people who just don't get it... it's perfect.


Are both of you gay?

[My brother] is completely homosexual. I identify as bisexual with a preference for males.


Are you living together with others, living together alone, living apart?

We live together with two small dogs that are a lot like children for us. It's just easier that way.


When did you first notice you had feelings for each other? How did you discover the feelings were mutual?

For me, they were probably there for a very long time. I just never realized what they meant. They were definitely more romantic than sexual at first. I didn't discover it until fairly recently. He was actually the one who initialized the relationship, contrary to what most people believe.


How did you start having sex with each other?

It was definitely something we were both thinking about, although it took a while for the initial "awkwardness" of discussing it to come out. He was the one who brought it up the first time.

We still haven't had the opportunity to try everything we want to. For example, we try to avoid full-on intercourse as often as we can simply because we're terrified of the legal punishment involved if people were to find out.

But we do have our time and whenever it becomes too difficult we simply isolate ourselves together somewhere, for maybe a weekend, as an example.


Can you describe that first time?

Unfortunately, due to the fear we did have, it wasn't as "Magical" as we intended. We were afraid even though we didn't truly think anyone would find out. But everything did feel "natural." There was no feeling of "Oh my god, I shouldn't be doing this." I just knew that I love him to death and that was all I had to focus on.


How do you feel about the lovemaking side of your relationship? Is it a natural extension of your general feelings and love for each other?

We don't find it very important to us, simply for the fact that most of our relationship is based on getting "out and about" and doing as many activities as possible. Perhaps as a distraction from the natural tension. But it is something we like to enjoy as much as any normal couple, because that's simply what we try our hardest to be like. We don't want to feel too different. The excitement of the moment is increased due to the "Forbidden" aspect of it. But we're still working to not HAVE to be so cautious.


Are you monogamous, in a closed relationship with each other?

Very monogamous. Although we respect all people and their choices and their rights, multiple partners never appealed to us. We're very strong believers in "One and Only"


Does anyone know the full, true nature of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted? Does anyone know you as a couple, but not brothers?

Our family didn't seem to really care as much, especially not our mother. She just asked that she not hear too much about it and that around HER we're brothers. We have one sister who is very supportive, but we also have one that despises us for it. The others are neutral.

When it comes to our social life and being around... Some people know us as brothers and some as a couple. Only the ones we feel we can really trust know us as both. When it comes to a professional life, we tend to keep quiet about any relationship between the two of us.


Do you think relatives have some things better or some advantages that unrelated lovers might not, such as more intense feelings and lovemaking? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages?

We do understand that some relationships have disadvantages. But so do non-related couples. I'd rather be with someone who I knew from the start I'd get along with (because I had since he was born) than with someone who just wouldn't get me. We did explain previously the sexual thrill that does come from the "rebellious" and "forbidden" feeling of interaction. But we also simply have this natural connection and bond that is unbreakable. The only down side I can honestly name is the lack of ability to marry and rights of consent. Also including the "taboo" issue.


Do you have feelings for other close biological relative that are anything like the ones you have for each other, whether they are as intense or not?

Not that I can name. I have a very close relationship with all of my relatives. I love them all to death. Plus there's the fact that we were raised to be affectionate. We kiss each other on the lips at family gatherings, we hug, we can even cuddle sometimes. But in that case it never meant anything sexual or romantic like it does with my partner.


What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your love?

We understand your concern, we respect your beliefs. But this is our life. You can't separate us simply because you want to. We will continue to live the way we choose. We are not trying to "disrespect" you or anyone who's had a bad experience with incest related abuse or anything of the sort. But we feel like there is nothing wrong with what we're doing. We're just as normal as any other couple and we know that many who have actually taken time to meet us will agree.


Would you get legally married if you could, and if that included protection from things such as bullying and workplace discrimination based on your relationship?

Of course we would. That'd be a dream. We've experienced physical and mental abuse due to our relationship, even in the workplace. Also the fact that we cannot have the marital benefits that many couples do have, even unrelated gay couples here in Canada. It's very difficult. But so far we'd just like the ability to be together and feel safe doing so.


Any plans for the future?

We'd like to travel as much as we can in the future. We're looking for places where we may be able to just spend a short amount of time where we may have slightly more equal rights. But all in all we'd just like to keep on with the path we're on (and maybe find some forest trolls ;) ))


Do you personally know or have you met in person other couples like you (that you are aware of)?

Not quite yet. Although we have met people who claim to have met other incest couples. Although we do know several same-sex couples and we even know a heterosexual couple hated for a 20 year age difference, despite the fact that since they met they've raised healthy children and behave like a normal couple.


What advice do you have to someone who has romantic or sexual feelings for a close biological relative?

All I can really say is... Don't let anything control you. Not even your own heart. Make sure your feelings are real and true and if they are, don't let them go without a fight. But do not let it lead to any form of abuse or harassment because nothing is worth that. You can't truly love someone and perform that as well.


Is there is anything else you want to add?

Just have to say thank you to to the person who referred us here. Also, thanks for listening.


***

How can anyone think these brothers would be better off leaving each other, whether to be alone to be with other people? They could never replace each other with someone else. Shouldn’t they be able to be together, be open about their relationship, and be legally married?


Read about other lovers denied their rights.

Canada Still Denies Marriage Equality

While Canada has the limited same-sex freedom to marry, not only has a B.C. court recently rejected the polygamous freedom to marry, the country of Canada as a whole is still denying the freedom to marry to some same-sex couples. Corneilius is in such a relationship, and generously agreed to be interviewed for this blog. Even though English isn’t his first language, I think you’ll agree he communicates well their love, affection, and hopes. [Note: I am bumping up this old entry because it is still as relevant as ever.]

***

FME: Describe your background.

Corneilius: We were both born sort of on the outskirts of a small Russian ”hick” town and grew up together in a large family. The two of us and our grandfather were the only males. We had a few sisters, an aunt, and our mother in the same house with us. After our grandfather died, we moved to a Canada. Now, we live in a small town again.

We even shared a bed for a good amount of time after [my brother] grew out of his crib. I am older than him by two and a half years and we’re now in our mid-twenties. During our childhood, we were a little more close than most of the brothers we knew. We had almost that "Twin" quality. We were always seen together. Probably because we had a bit of a different view on life than most. For example, our grandfather taught us about forest trolls and it took us ages for our belief in them to die down. But we still spend as much time as we can in forested areas. Probably to remind us of that time in life.




You are full blood brothers?

Yes.


How would you describe the nature of your relationship? Boyfriends? Best friends? Husbands? Soulmates? All of those?

We're many of those things. We have the natural life bond that brothers have. He is my brother. But more than anything, he's definitely my soulmate and my best friend. We do absolutely everything together and never get tired of each other. Perhaps it's the practice of growing up together. But honestly, aside from the constant hate from people who just don't get it... it's perfect.


Are both of you gay?

[My brother] is completely homosexual. I identify as bisexual with a preference for males.


Are you living together with others, living together alone, living apart?

We live together with two small dogs that are a lot like children for us. It's just easier that way.


When did you first notice you had feelings for each other? How did you discover the feelings were mutual?

For me, they were probably there for a very long time. I just never realized what they meant. They were definitely more romantic than sexual at first. I didn't discover it until fairly recently. He was actually the one who initialized the relationship, contrary to what most people believe.


How did you start having sex with each other?

It was definitely something we were both thinking about, although it took a while for the initial "awkwardness" of discussing it to come out. He was the one who brought it up the first time.

We still haven't had the opportunity to try everything we want to. For example, we try to avoid full-on intercourse as often as we can simply because we're terrified of the legal punishment involved if people were to find out.

But we do have our time and whenever it becomes too difficult we simply isolate ourselves together somewhere, for maybe a weekend, as an example.


Can you describe that first time?

Unfortunately, due to the fear we did have, it wasn't as "Magical" as we intended. We were afraid even though we didn't truly think anyone would find out. But everything did feel "natural." There was no feeling of "Oh my god, I shouldn't be doing this." I just knew that I love him to death and that was all I had to focus on.


How do you feel about the lovemaking side of your relationship? Is it a natural extension of your general feelings and love for each other?

We don't find it very important to us, simply for the fact that most of our relationship is based on getting "out and about" and doing as many activities as possible. Perhaps as a distraction from the natural tension. But it is something we like to enjoy as much as any normal couple, because that's simply what we try our hardest to be like. We don't want to feel too different. The excitement of the moment is increased due to the "Forbidden" aspect of it. But we're still working to not HAVE to be so cautious.


Are you monogamous, in a closed relationship with each other?

Very monogamous. Although we respect all people and their choices and their rights, multiple partners never appealed to us. We're very strong believers in "One and Only"


Does anyone know the full, true nature of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted? Does anyone know you as a couple, but not brothers?

Our family didn't seem to really care as much, especially not our mother. She just asked that she not hear too much about it and that around HER we're brothers. We have one sister who is very supportive, but we also have one that despises us for it. The others are neutral.

When it comes to our social life and being around... Some people know us as brothers and some as a couple. Only the ones we feel we can really trust know us as both. When it comes to a professional life, we tend to keep quiet about any relationship between the two of us.


Do you think relatives have some things better or some advantages that unrelated lovers might not, such as more intense feelings and lovemaking? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages?

We do understand that some relationships have disadvantages. But so do non-related couples. I'd rather be with someone who I knew from the start I'd get along with (because I had since he was born) than with someone who just wouldn't get me. We did explain previously the sexual thrill that does come from the "rebellious" and "forbidden" feeling of interaction. But we also simply have this natural connection and bond that is unbreakable. The only down side I can honestly name is the lack of ability to marry and rights of consent. Also including the "taboo" issue.


Do you have feelings for other close biological relative that are anything like the ones you have for each other, whether they are as intense or not?

Not that I can name. I have a very close relationship with all of my relatives. I love them all to death. Plus there's the fact that we were raised to be affectionate. We kiss each other on the lips at family gatherings, we hug, we can even cuddle sometimes. But in that case it never meant anything sexual or romantic like it does with my partner.


What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your love?

We understand your concern, we respect your beliefs. But this is our life. You can't separate us simply because you want to. We will continue to live the way we choose. We are not trying to "disrespect" you or anyone who's had a bad experience with incest related abuse or anything of the sort. But we feel like there is nothing wrong with what we're doing. We're just as normal as any other couple and we know that many who have actually taken time to meet us will agree.


Would you get legally married if you could, and if that included protection from things such as bullying and workplace discrimination based on your relationship?

Of course we would. That'd be a dream. We've experienced physical and mental abuse due to our relationship, even in the workplace. Also the fact that we cannot have the marital benefits that many couples do have, even unrelated gay couples here in Canada. It's very difficult. But so far we'd just like the ability to be together and feel safe doing so.


Any plans for the future?

We'd like to travel as much as we can in the future. We're looking for places where we may be able to just spend a short amount of time where we may have slightly more equal rights. But all in all we'd just like to keep on with the path we're on (and maybe find some forest trolls ;) ))


Do you personally know or have you met in person other couples like you (that you are aware of)?

Not quite yet. Although we have met people who claim to have met other incest couples. Although we do know several same-sex couples and we even know a heterosexual couple hated for a 20 year age difference, despite the fact that since they met they've raised healthy children and behave like a normal couple.


What advice do you have to someone who has romantic or sexual feelings for a close biological relative?

All I can really say is... Don't let anything control you. Not even your own heart. Make sure your feelings are real and true and if they are, don't let them go without a fight. But do not let it lead to any form of abuse or harassment because nothing is worth that. You can't truly love someone and perform that as well.


Is there is anything else you want to add?

Just have to say thank you to to the person who referred us here. Also, thanks for listening.


***

How can anyone think these brothers would be better off leaving each other, whether to be alone to be with other people? They could never replace each other with someone else. Shouldn’t they be able to be together, be open about their relationship, and be legally married?


Read about other lovers denied their rights.

Categories