An Example of the Benefit of Nonmonogamy in Nature

I am polyamorous, but not one of those polyamorists who say everyone else should be polyamorous, too. When I say I support the rights of consenting adults, that includes the freedom to be monogamous or celibate. And, as I always say, just because something is found in another species, it doesn't automatically apply to humans. With those things out of the way, I wanted to note Carl Zimmer's report at nytimes.com that flies forced into monogamy apparently lose learning ability.

Forcing male flies into monogamy has a startling effect: After a few dozen generations, the flies become worse at learning.

This discovery, published on Wednesday in the Proceedings of the Royal Society, isn’t a biological excuse for men who have strayed from their significant other. Instead, it’s a tantalizing clue about why intelligence evolved.

The new study was carried out by Brian Hollis and Tadeusz J. Kawecki, biologists at the University of Lausanne in Switzerland. They investigated a fly species called Drosophila melanogaster that normally has a very un-monogamous way of life.

I do think it causes all sorts of problems to try to force a polyamorous person into monogamy. Human history has shown that over and over again. Also, many polyamorous people will tell you that living out polyamory has made them better people and taught them much.

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Posted in: academia,human origins,lack of equality harms,monogamy,open,polyamory,polygamy,science

3rd International Conference on the Future of Monogamy and Nonmonogamy

Ethical nonmonogamy will continue to gain understanding, acceptance, and recognition as we move towards full marriage equality and relationship right for all. Conferences like this one will help with the process. From the website...

This event will happen February 21-23, 2014, in Berkeley, California, USA.

This conference will explore issues related to monogamous and nonmonogamous relationships from an interdisciplinary perspective. This event will be devoted to presentations of scientific and academic research related to polyamory, open relationships, swinging, other forms of consensual nonmonogamy and related subjects. The conference does not take a position on whether any particular type or style of relationship is healthy or pathological. The intention of the event is explore the subject in as objective and unbiased a manner as possible. Presentations will cover various topics that offer some possible progress to a deeper and more complete understanding of the phenomenon of consensual nonmonogamy.

This event will happen at:
THE CLARK KERR CONFERENCE CENTER, BUILDING #14, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY
The street address of the event is:
2601 WARRING STREET,
BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA, 94720.

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Posted in: academia,boundaries,group,monogamy,open,polyamory,polyandry,polygamy,polygyny,swinging

Entertainment Media Needs a Fresh Perspective

Movie and television stars in the US are still expected, judging by media coverage, to have love lives that fall into a few narrow molds, and many apparently feel the pressure to present themselves as hetero-monogamous. Gays and lesbians are becoming more accepted, but many are still closeted or avoid public appearances with their partners. Bisexuality is accepted in women much more than men. For the most part, stars are expected to be monogamous, or at least serially monogamous; dates or encounters with others are portrayed as scandalous or a sign that their prior known relationship is over. There are a few exceptions, such as Playboy founder Hugh Hefner, but for the most part, stars are "supposed" to be with just one person or just date casually.

Anyone who thinks for more than a minute beyond the superficial publicist-prepared portrayals realizes that there must be stars who haven't come out as LGBT or polyamorous, or in open relationships, or as swingers or swappers, just by percentages alone.

I bring all of this up because of something at thedailybeast.com by Tricia Romano under the headline "What's So Bad About an Open Marriage?" It starts off with reports of Will Smith, perhaps, getting "too close" with someone who is not his wife.

Jada Pinkett Smith and Will Smith. (Getty)

But in April, Jada Smith told Huff Post Live: “I’ve always told Will, ‘You can do whatever you want as long as you can look at yourself in the mirror and be OK. Because at the end of the day, Will is his own man,” she said. “It comes from respecting that you are in a partnership and that also you are an individual as well.”

Later, she clarified in a Facebook post: “Will and I BOTH can do WHATEVER we want, because we TRUST each other to do so. This does NOT mean we have an open relationship…this means we have a GROWN one.”

Grown is a good word.

People are often threatened by open relationships, says Rachel Kramer Bussel, a sex writer and editor of The Big Book of Orgasms, because it seems so exotic and weird when compared to the status quo.

“We just don’t have any formal model for a public couple having an open relationship."

That's a very important point. We need more honest portrayals not only in fiction, but in nonfiction as well.

There is at least one celebrity who is open about her relationship: Mo’Nique has told Barbara Walters she’s got an understanding with her husband.

She said: “Could Sid have sex outside of his marriage with me? Yes. That’s not a deal-breaker,” she says. “That’s not something that would make us say, ‘Pack your things and let’s end the marriage.’ What if it’s 20 times? So what? we’ve been best friends for over 25 years, and we truly know who we are. Oftentimes, people get into marriages and they don’t know who they’re laying next to. I’m very comfortable and secure with my husband.”

Good for them!

It's a good article, although I would've liked some clarification of terms. An "open marriage" is not synonymous with polyamory. There are many people in polyamorous relationships that are not open, for example. There are stars who haven't been outed as LGBT, or as asexual, or as polyamorous, or as in open relationships, or in consangiunamorous relationships. They are people and they have their sexual orientation, gender identity, and relationships that do not have to be ours to know, but I will support any of them that do come out and be grateful that in doing so, they help move us towards all adults being free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,cheating,coming out,media,monogamy,open,polyamory,prejudice

Entertainment Media Needs a Fresh Perspective

Movie and television stars in the US are still expected, judging by media coverage, to have love lives that fall into a few narrow molds, and many apparently feel the pressure to present themselves as hetero-monogamous. Gays and lesbians are becoming more accepted, but many are still closeted or avoid public appearances with their partners. Bisexuality is accepted in women much more than men. For the most part, stars are expected to be monogamous, or at least serially monogamous; dates or encounters with others are portrayed as scandalous or a sign that their prior known relationship is over. There are a few exceptions, such as Playboy founder Hugh Hefner, but for the most part, stars are "supposed" to be with just one person or just date casually.

Anyone who thinks for more than a minute beyond the superficial publicist-prepared portrayals realizes that there must be stars who haven't come out as LGBT or polyamorous, or in open relationships, or as swingers or swappers, just by percentages alone.

I bring all of this up because of something at thedailybeast.com by Tricia Romano under the headline "What's So Bad About an Open Marriage?" It starts off with reports of Will Smith, perhaps, getting "too close" with someone who is not his wife.

Jada Pinkett Smith and Will Smith. (Getty)

But in April, Jada Smith told Huff Post Live: “I’ve always told Will, ‘You can do whatever you want as long as you can look at yourself in the mirror and be OK. Because at the end of the day, Will is his own man,” she said. “It comes from respecting that you are in a partnership and that also you are an individual as well.”

Later, she clarified in a Facebook post: “Will and I BOTH can do WHATEVER we want, because we TRUST each other to do so. This does NOT mean we have an open relationship…this means we have a GROWN one.”

Grown is a good word.

People are often threatened by open relationships, says Rachel Kramer Bussel, a sex writer and editor of The Big Book of Orgasms, because it seems so exotic and weird when compared to the status quo.

“We just don’t have any formal model for a public couple having an open relationship."

That's a very important point. We need more honest portrayals not only in fiction, but in nonfiction as well.

There is at least one celebrity who is open about her relationship: Mo’Nique has told Barbara Walters she’s got an understanding with her husband.

She said: “Could Sid have sex outside of his marriage with me? Yes. That’s not a deal-breaker,” she says. “That’s not something that would make us say, ‘Pack your things and let’s end the marriage.’ What if it’s 20 times? So what? we’ve been best friends for over 25 years, and we truly know who we are. Oftentimes, people get into marriages and they don’t know who they’re laying next to. I’m very comfortable and secure with my husband.”

Good for them!

It's a good article, although I would've liked some clarification of terms. An "open marriage" is not synonymous with polyamory. There are many people in polyamorous relationships that are not open, for example. There are stars who haven't been outed as LGBT, or as asexual, or as polyamorous, or as in open relationships, or in consangiunamorous relationships. They are people and they have their sexual orientation, gender identity, and relationships that do not have to be ours to know, but I will support any of them that do come out and be grateful that in doing so, they help move us towards all adults being free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,cheating,coming out,media,monogamy,open,polyamory,prejudice

Differing Ideas About the Origins of Monogamy

At irishtimes.com, William Reville wrote about conflicting theories about the origins of monogamy.

Two big studies were published exploring the origins of monogamy in mammals, which these researchers define as males and females living in breeding pairs (this does not necessarily mean each animal is always faithful).

So even when an animal is listed as monogamous, it might not actually be. Living together, having sex, and raising children are not all the same things.

Birds are quite socially monogamous – 92 per cent stay with a mate for at least a mating season – but monogamy is relatively rare in mammals. This is because both male and female birds can carry out parenting duties such as incubating eggs and feeding chicks, whereas male mammals cannot help gestate or breastfeed.

Overall, 9 per cent of mammalian species are monogamous, whereas about 25 per cent of primate species live in pairs. Monogamous animals include swans, wolves, bald eagles, vultures, Arctic foxes, coyotes, grey seals, meerkats, red foxes, snow leopards, rhinoceroses, beavers, gibbons and mole rats.

Hmmm. Calling someone a "fox" might bring a different image to me now.

The Cambridge study concluded that monogamy evolved independently 61 times in mammals and, in almost all cases, when females lived separated far from each other. The researchers concluded that, under these circumstances, males would have difficulty mating with multiple females, and they would fare better by sticking with a single female and guarding her against advances from other males. Such “one-woman” males would produce more offspring than males who attempted to spread themselves about and, consequently, genes predisposing for monogamy would accumulate in the species.

Humans tend to live in close proximity to each other.

On the contrary, the UCL group concluded that the stimulus for the evolution of monogamy in primates was the high risk of infanticide by males. It is noted today that infanticide rates are very low in monogamous primates, and higher in non-monogamous primates. Males in non-monogamous species may benefit by killing babies sired by rival males.

 Usually in humans, killing a woman's children means you're not going to be having sex with her.

They have no interest in investing resources in fostering rivals’ offspring; also, losing a baby forces the mother to enter her fertile period sooner. Monogamy evolved, the UCL researchers propose, as a counter strategy among males who stayed close to their mates and offspring to defend them.

The Cambridge and UCL researchers are talking to each other but there is much to resolve. The Cambridge group found no evidence that infanticide drove the evolution of monogamy in primates, and the UCL group claims monogamy arose in primates before females moved into separate discrete territories.

The two groups disagree over the implications of their research for human evolution. The UCL team says human monogamy evolved to minimise the threat of infanticide. The Cambridge team says its own results have little bearing on humans because humans evolved from ancestors that lived in social groups, so their theory on monogamy and females living far apart doesn’t apply.

Right.

Indeed the Cambridge group wonders whether humans ever evolved monogamy at all, because in many traditional societies one man may take several wives. According to George P Murdock’s Ethnographic Atlas (University of Pittsburgh Press, 1969), among 1,231 societies around the world, 186 are monogamous, 453 are occasionally polygamist, 588 are frequently polygamist and four practise polyandry (married to more than one husband).

What about places where it is common and accepted for at least one spouse in a "monogamous" marriage to have a long-term lover on the side?

However, the actual practice of polygamy in a tolerant society may be low. In many monogamous societies the divorce rate approaches 50 per cent, and re-marriage is common. In reality, these “monogamous societies” practise serial monogamy, a form of plural mating.

Well, yes, that is the whole "serial monogamy" or "serial polygamy" thing.

How many humans go through their entire life with only one sex partner?
How many humans go through their entire life only having/raising children with one other person?
How many humans go through their entire life only ever living the same one partner?
How many humans go through their entire life only marrying on person?

Considering all of this, it makes it less plausible to say monogamy is or should be the norm for humans. I'm not someone who says nobody should be monogamous. Although I am polyamorous, I do not think polygamory is for everyone. I fully support someone's right to be monogamous, and if they're happy being monogamous I am happy for them. In turn, I welcome monogamous allies for the rights of the polyamorous, especially in light of the scientific facts.

Read more »

Posted in: children,human origins,monogamy,polyamory,polyandry,polygamy,polygyny,pregnancy,science

Differing Ideas About the Origins of Monogamy

At irishtimes.com, William Reville wrote about conflicting theories about the origins of monogamy.

Two big studies were published exploring the origins of monogamy in mammals, which these researchers define as males and females living in breeding pairs (this does not necessarily mean each animal is always faithful).

So even when an animal is listed as monogamous, it might not actually be. Living together, having sex, and raising children are not all the same things.

Birds are quite socially monogamous – 92 per cent stay with a mate for at least a mating season – but monogamy is relatively rare in mammals. This is because both male and female birds can carry out parenting duties such as incubating eggs and feeding chicks, whereas male mammals cannot help gestate or breastfeed.

Overall, 9 per cent of mammalian species are monogamous, whereas about 25 per cent of primate species live in pairs. Monogamous animals include swans, wolves, bald eagles, vultures, Arctic foxes, coyotes, grey seals, meerkats, red foxes, snow leopards, rhinoceroses, beavers, gibbons and mole rats.

Hmmm. Calling someone a "fox" might bring a different image to me now.

The Cambridge study concluded that monogamy evolved independently 61 times in mammals and, in almost all cases, when females lived separated far from each other. The researchers concluded that, under these circumstances, males would have difficulty mating with multiple females, and they would fare better by sticking with a single female and guarding her against advances from other males. Such “one-woman” males would produce more offspring than males who attempted to spread themselves about and, consequently, genes predisposing for monogamy would accumulate in the species.

Humans tend to live in close proximity to each other.

On the contrary, the UCL group concluded that the stimulus for the evolution of monogamy in primates was the high risk of infanticide by males. It is noted today that infanticide rates are very low in monogamous primates, and higher in non-monogamous primates. Males in non-monogamous species may benefit by killing babies sired by rival males.

 Usually in humans, killing a woman's children means you're not going to be having sex with her.

They have no interest in investing resources in fostering rivals’ offspring; also, losing a baby forces the mother to enter her fertile period sooner. Monogamy evolved, the UCL researchers propose, as a counter strategy among males who stayed close to their mates and offspring to defend them.

The Cambridge and UCL researchers are talking to each other but there is much to resolve. The Cambridge group found no evidence that infanticide drove the evolution of monogamy in primates, and the UCL group claims monogamy arose in primates before females moved into separate discrete territories.

The two groups disagree over the implications of their research for human evolution. The UCL team says human monogamy evolved to minimise the threat of infanticide. The Cambridge team says its own results have little bearing on humans because humans evolved from ancestors that lived in social groups, so their theory on monogamy and females living far apart doesn’t apply.

Right.

Indeed the Cambridge group wonders whether humans ever evolved monogamy at all, because in many traditional societies one man may take several wives. According to George P Murdock’s Ethnographic Atlas (University of Pittsburgh Press, 1969), among 1,231 societies around the world, 186 are monogamous, 453 are occasionally polygamist, 588 are frequently polygamist and four practise polyandry (married to more than one husband).

What about places where it is common and accepted for at least one spouse in a "monogamous" marriage to have a long-term lover on the side?

However, the actual practice of polygamy in a tolerant society may be low. In many monogamous societies the divorce rate approaches 50 per cent, and re-marriage is common. In reality, these “monogamous societies” practise serial monogamy, a form of plural mating.

Well, yes, that is the whole "serial monogamy" or "serial polygamy" thing.

How many humans go through their entire life with only one sex partner?
How many humans go through their entire life only having/raising children with one other person?
How many humans go through their entire life only ever living the same one partner?
How many humans go through their entire life only marrying on person?

Considering all of this, it makes it less plausible to say monogamy is or should be the norm for humans. I'm not someone who says nobody should be monogamous. Although I am polyamorous, I do not think polygamory is for everyone. I fully support someone's right to be monogamous, and if they're happy being monogamous I am happy for them. In turn, I welcome monogamous allies for the rights of the polyamorous, especially in light of the scientific facts.

Read more »

Posted in: children,human origins,monogamy,polyamory,polyandry,polygamy,polygyny,pregnancy,science

Dear Abby Completely Ignores Polyamory

One of the frustrating things in the struggle for relationship rights for all adults is an assumption of monogamy-as-ideal in so much media, and this Dear Abby answer (second question) is a perfect example. A "Carlos" in Texas wrote...

I'm 14 and haven't had a girlfriend yet, but I'm curious about something. When I do have one, will it mean I can't love other girls?

Lots of girls tell me I'm nice, friendly and helpful. I love them. When I have a girlfriend or get married, I won't be able to stop loving others. Is this wrong, Abby?

This would be an ideal response...

No, it isn't wrong. Some people are polyamorous. That means that they are oriented towards having relationships with more than one person, with the consent and agreement of all involved. Some people your age know they are polyamorous. Some polyamorous people don't understand or accept that they're polyamorous until they are older. Others find that some other form of ethical nonmonogamy is best for them. There's also a chance you will find that monogamy suits you best, but you are currently going through emotional growing pains.

What is important is that you are honest with yourself, and honest with your potential partners about who you are, what you have to offer, and what you need. That may take some time and experience to figure out. If it turns out you are polyamorous, you'll need partners who accept that you are, whether they are polyamorous or not, just like you'll need to accept your partners for who they are, if you want them as partners.

But this is what was given as the response...

There are varying degrees of love. There is nothing wrong with loving women, as long as you don't love them all at the same time. If you do, it may upset your girlfriend or wife.

When you are ready for a permanent relationship, the feelings you will have for the woman you're involved with will be stronger than those you are feeling now. However, if that doesn't happen, consider it an indication that you either aren't ready to settle down or you were meant to be a bachelor.

Let's review the options given to Carlos (and, by extension, millions of other people in like situations)...

1. Monogamy with a girlfriend or wife
2. Bachelorhood without a girlfriend

There is also "not ready," which presumes one of the two options listed above are the ultimate destination. What does Dear Abby mean by bachelorhood? Hook ups? Celibacy? Something else?

But those options are not the only options. There are many others that are ethical and mutually enjoyed by responsible adults. And teenagers need to know that. They need to know that one size does not fit all. Not every person is oriented towards monogamy, or heterosexuality for that matter.

Read more »

Posted in: media,monogamy,polyamory,prejudice

Dear Abby Completely Ignores Polyamory

One of the frustrating things in the struggle for relationship rights for all adults is an assumption of monogamy-as-ideal in so much media, and this Dear Abby answer (second question) is a perfect example. A "Carlos" in Texas wrote...

I'm 14 and haven't had a girlfriend yet, but I'm curious about something. When I do have one, will it mean I can't love other girls?

Lots of girls tell me I'm nice, friendly and helpful. I love them. When I have a girlfriend or get married, I won't be able to stop loving others. Is this wrong, Abby?

This would be an ideal response...

No, it isn't wrong. Some people are polyamorous. That means that they are oriented towards having relationships with more than one person, with the consent and agreement of all involved. Some people your age know they are polyamorous. Some polyamorous people don't understand or accept that they're polyamorous until they are older. Others find that some other form of ethical nonmonogamy is best for them. There's also a chance you will find that monogamy suits you best, but you are currently going through emotional growing pains.

What is important is that you are honest with yourself, and honest with your potential partners about who you are, what you have to offer, and what you need. That may take some time and experience to figure out. If it turns out you are polyamorous, you'll need partners who accept that you are, whether they are polyamorous or not, just like you'll need to accept your partners for who they are, if you want them as partners.

But this is what was given as the response...

There are varying degrees of love. There is nothing wrong with loving women, as long as you don't love them all at the same time. If you do, it may upset your girlfriend or wife.

When you are ready for a permanent relationship, the feelings you will have for the woman you're involved with will be stronger than those you are feeling now. However, if that doesn't happen, consider it an indication that you either aren't ready to settle down or you were meant to be a bachelor.

Let's review the options given to Carlos (and, by extension, millions of other people in like situations)...

1. Monogamy with a girlfriend or wife
2. Bachelorhood without a girlfriend

There is also "not ready," which presumes one of the two options listed above are the ultimate destination. What does Dear Abby mean by bachelorhood? Hook ups? Celibacy? Something else?

But those options are not the only options. There are many others that are ethical and mutually enjoyed by responsible adults. And teenagers need to know that. They need to know that one size does not fit all. Not every person is oriented towards monogamy, or heterosexuality for that matter.

Read more »

Posted in: media,monogamy,polyamory,prejudice

A Lifelong Love Denied Marriage Equality

In my quest to speed the arrival of relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality, I come in contact with a rich diversity of people. Some of those people tell me about their youthful experimentation with their siblings, or later flings with another close relative, and tell me it was mainly about experimenting and learning or mainly about sex.

Others tell me about their deep, abiding, wholistic love with their close relative, relationships that are more beautiful and profound than most of the other marriages you see… the ones that don’t have to be hidden in a closet. Bearsbaby was generous with her time and privacy, sharing with me to provide the follow interview, which is one of the best so far. (I am bumping up this interview because it is one of my favorites and still as relevant as ever.)

*****

Bearsbaby is an attractive, and as you will see, eloquent woman living in Scotland. She is in her mid-30s and a “born and bred” highlander. She works as a personal assistant for her brother, who works in law helping the disabled. Sometimes, she is also caretaker to her brother due to serious ongoing health problems.

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: You live with your brother. Does anyone else live with you?

Bearsbaby: Me and my brother live as husband and wife. Although nobody lives with us, we do have pets, and we quite often have our elder sister come and stay for anything up to a month at a time. We deliberately moved to a city so we could be together and build our relationship together.


FME: Is your brother your full blood brother? Is he younger or older than you, and if so, by how much? What other siblings do you have and are they older, younger, what?

My bear is my full blood brother and is a year older than myself. I have an elder sister, a younger brother and an older brother. Due to our relationship though, we no longer have contact with our older brother.

FME: Describe your relationship with your brother.

Our relationship is a very loving one, and my brother is my whole life to me, and I know I am his life and reason for living. We aren't just brother and sister, we are the best of friends, soulmates and the other half to each others wings. We have a very close and intimate relationship, which includes lovemaking. I can't sleep at night without him being by my side, I cry when he is in the hospital, etc. To me, there is only one person I have ever loved, and ever will, and that is my sweet darling brother.

FME: What was your relationship with your brother like prior to the inclusion of sex?

I have always been close to my brother, even as children we always seemed to get on better with each other than all our other siblings. We were raised by our parents in a very close knit community, which was quite hard, mainly because it became so difficult to hide our relationship away. Mum and Dad always said we were like 2 peas in the same pod even as children.

FME: When/how did you first realize sex with your brother was a possibility and that you wanted it? Did such feelings seem strange to you or like something you had previously considered to be wrong?

I knew by the age of 13. I was very sexually attracted to my brother, but even though we both had the sexual attraction towards each other, we didn’t make love for the first time until a couple of years later. To us there was nothing wrong or strange with our feelings; it always felt just right. We had built our love up from an early age and to both of us, love isn't wrong. How can sexual attraction be wrong when you have the love there?

FME: Who made the first move? How did it happen? Was it planned or spontaneous?

I don't really think either of us made the first move. We had been in love for 4 years before we became sexually active like that. It was one of those moments that just felt it was right for the both of us. I know the first time we made love, I felt… well, how to put this... home.

It was the most heavenly and loving feeling I had ever felt in the world, and I knew that  I wanted my brother to be my one and only for the rest of my life from that point on.

We built our love up over many years. At 11 years old, I was craving to just be with him even if it was doing homework together and holding his hand under the table. At that age you do get confused with emotions and feelings, but then this is the learning process as you grow up, but to me, it always felt right. Of course we had ups and downs, we argued, we fought at times, but we always kissed and made up, literally. Even at an early age, we always managed to slip away for a moment to have a kiss before bed.

There were times that I doubted myself, and whether I would always be able to give my brother the love he deserved, but this was more prevalent during his times of illness and hospitalisation.

One thing that I always knew though, no matter how ill he got, I loved him. I would even play truant from school just to visit him in the hospital, etc. This was my loved one, my one and only, and I would have and still would do anything for him. He really is my one, my only, my heart, my soul, my every waking breath, and always will be. I have never wanted to be with anyone else; I have only ever wanted my brother.

FME: Some say a consanguinamorous brother and sister are kinky by definition, but I disagree and notice that most consanguinamorous relationships look like any other relationship, although usually with much more intensity. Do you feel like your relationship is taboo, and if so, do you like that or get a thrill from that? Or does it feel normal?

What is taboo about love? Our hearts and souls choose who we love, and who we want to share our lives with, so when you find that one special person, then how can it be so wrong or taboo? We are a strong loving couple, we have been brought up together, we have learned as kids more about each other than many couples would learn about each other in a lifetime. So what that we are brother and sister? We are a strong, loving couple, and always will be. A relationship is built on love, trust, security, the ability to communicate with each other, and the ability to still learn more about each other. We have the advantage of having a whole lifetime of building this up with each other. Therefore, I feel it is a much stronger relationship, and definitely a more loving one, that many would never find in their lifetime.

FME: Does anyone in your life know the full, true nature/history of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted? Are you able to act like a couple in public... does anyone know you as a couple but not as brother and sister? What kind of steps, if any, have you had to take to keep your privacy?

We have a very supportive family, and they know everything about our relationship. That included our grandparents. Our doctor and my brother’s medical team know about our relationship also. They had inklings years ago, and we finally admitted our relationship to his team, and they don't even batter an eyelid now. They just see the couple we are.

It was mum and dad that caught us out big-time. They found us sound asleep cuddled up naked together, so really there was no hiding from that point. Yeah, it caused hell at first, but after they realised that we had actually been in love for 4 years by this time, they took the difficult decision to support us.

Now, if you look at us, you would see a normal husband and wife relationship, we walk down the street holding hands etc, but then that's all we are... a strong loving couple. This is why we made the decision to move to a different city over 200 miles away from our original home.

FME: Having to hide the full nature of your relationship from some people can be a disadvantage. Are there any other disadvantages? Conversely, do you think family members have some advantages and some things better than unrelated lovers?

Hiding away always has disadvantages, but it's how you make the best or worst of the situation that will either make or break you as a couple. Of course being in the type of relationship we are in would seem so taboo and wrong to society, so you have to be strong enough in each other and as a couple to be able to hide the fact you are related.

It hasn't been a bed of roses for us, in fact it's been hell at times. When we first got found out, it nearly broke us and the family to pieces. We have also had to make the conscious decision to have no more contact with our eldest brother, due to sibling rivalry. He wanted a bit of what we had together, but only the sexual part. So we were left with no choice but to literally disown him. So there are a lot of disadvantages.

FME: You're an attractive woman. Some people do know you are brother and sister, or did when you were younger. How do/did you deal with people who are interested in dating you, or with people who want to fix you up with someone, or ask you why you're not with someone?

The only people that know I am living with my brother are our family and medical teams; apart from that we are a 'married' couple. Of course when I was younger I had people try and pick me up, but my brother was always by my side, and if they knew us as brother and sister, then he would defend me by saying something like "Are you trying to hit on my sister?" If nobody knew who we were, then he would come over and be the man I love, and hold me kiss me, and then say something like "Hey loser, are you trying to pick up my WIFE!?!"

I would also do the same for him, but nowadays we don't have anyone see us as anything different as husband and wife. I wear his ring, and he wears mine. As highlanders we took a decision to declare our love to each other formally in front of those we loved, so we had a Celtic commitment ceremony. To us this was our marriage, and from that point we became in our hearts husband and wife, and with that we dedicated our life and our love to each other.

So no matter who finds me attractive, my heart, my soul, my body, my everything, belongs to my brother, and always will.

FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your relationship, or disapprove of anyone having this kind of relationship? What's your reply to those who would say that if a brother and sister have this kind of relationship, it is only because the sister is being victimized by the brother?

I would like to say that you have the biggest disability of all: a negative attitude. Take time to see the couple we are, take time to listen and learn, after all we are all the same underneath, we all have the same feelings and emotions, we all love and can be loved, so why should we not be with the one person who makes us feel complete?

There is a difference between a consensual relationship and one that is non-consensual. That’s what defines the difference between a relationship and abuse. If you are not willing to learn about our type of relationship, then it's YOU that's making us the victims. So aren't you the ones abusing us by victimizing us?

FME: What advice do you have for someone who is curious or has romantic or sexual feelings for a close relative? What advice do you have for parents who find out their children (perhaps still living at home) are involved with each other?

For those who are curious, I would say keep at as curiosity only. Your heart will tell you if this will ever come to anything, so follow it, and even if you never end up in a relationship, you will always have a close bond.

For those who have sexual feelings to a close relationship, I would ask them to question if they aren't confusing love with lust. There is one heck of a difference. Lust can't make you feel complete; it's nothing but sexual desire. So even though you may have sexual feelings, is it really worth ruining what you have learned together over the years because of lust? Think long and hard. If you know 100% that you have sexual feelings because of love, then follow your hearts. If it's just lust, then it's time to back away.

For the family and relatives, my advice would be quite simple. You are the family and loved ones that make us the people who we are from a very early stage of life. You teach us what is right and wrong, yet as adults, you choose to become childish if you refuse to listen and even try to understand. Love chooses it's path for everyone. You brought us into this world because of love. You gave us the ability to understand things in life, so don't lose it yourself by refusing to understand us.

FME: If you could get legally married, and that included protections against discrimination, harassment, etc., would you?

In a heartbeat. My brother is my life, he is everything I could ever want in a man. I have loved him for 24 years now, he is the only man I have loved and ever will, so even though we live as husband and wife, it would be dream come true to legally marry him.

FME: Any plans for the future?

We find it difficult to make long term plans because of the health problems that my brother will suffer from throughout his life. Due to his medical condition, we both know he will spend the whole of his life having tests, having tumours form, and one day it will claim his life, so we live and love every day of our lives for what it is.

However next year, we are having a family party to celebrate that we have been together 25 years.

FME: Do you know in-person others who have had relationships like yours?

Only online. We keep our relationship quite private and we want people to see us as a couple, and we see everyone else for who they are. So we may have met other couples like us and not known it; we just see everyone for the loving people we all are and can be.

FME: Anything else you want to add?

We all love for the same reason: our hearts and souls tell us that the person we are with is the right one for us. Follow your heart, listen to your soul. When you know your heart, mind and soul speak as one, it's right. Love never judges anyone, so don't judge until you fully understand. We may be related, but look past that, see us for who we are. 

He's my brother, yet he's also my bear. He’s a Grizzly in his fight to give disabled people the right to lead as normal a life as you and me, yet my Teddy Bear when he's in my arms. Don't discriminate us, don't judge us. We have a right to live and love, just like everybody else does.

*****



Dear reader, if you can read that and still support laws against consanguinamory and still think it is acceptable to deny siblings the right to marry and deny marriage equality, then I don’t see how you can live with yourself. It is cruel and heartless to discriminate against, ridicule, and criminalize such a beautiful and pure love. If only most marriages in this world were anything close to this loving, the world would be a better place.


Thanks again to Bearsbaby for sharing.

If you are in a relationship involving conanguinamory or consensual incest, know someone who is, support those who are, or just want to know more about such relationships, I’m not aware of any better place to discuss them than the Kindred Spirits forum. Also, please join the group I Support Full Marriage Equality on Facebook.

You can read other interviews like this here.

If you are in, or have been in, a “forbidden” consensual relationship, and want to be interviewed, please contact me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,incest,lack of equality harms,love,monogamy,siblings,UK

A Lifelong Love Denied Marriage Equality

In my quest to speed the arrival of relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality, I come in contact with a rich diversity of people. Some of those people tell me about their youthful experimentation with their siblings, or later flings with another close relative, and tell me it was mainly about experimenting and learning or mainly about sex.

Others tell me about their deep, abiding, wholistic love with their close relative, relationships that are more beautiful and profound than most of the other marriages you see… the ones that don’t have to be hidden in a closet. Bearsbaby was generous with her time and privacy, sharing with me to provide the follow interview, which is one of the best so far. (I am bumping up this interview because it is one of my favorites and still as relevant as ever.)

*****

Bearsbaby is an attractive, and as you will see, eloquent woman living in Scotland. She is in her mid-30s and a “born and bred” highlander. She works as a personal assistant for her brother, who works in law helping the disabled. Sometimes, she is also caretaker to her brother due to serious ongoing health problems.

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: You live with your brother. Does anyone else live with you?

Bearsbaby: Me and my brother live as husband and wife. Although nobody lives with us, we do have pets, and we quite often have our elder sister come and stay for anything up to a month at a time. We deliberately moved to a city so we could be together and build our relationship together.


FME: Is your brother your full blood brother? Is he younger or older than you, and if so, by how much? What other siblings do you have and are they older, younger, what?

My bear is my full blood brother and is a year older than myself. I have an elder sister, a younger brother and an older brother. Due to our relationship though, we no longer have contact with our older brother.

FME: Describe your relationship with your brother.

Our relationship is a very loving one, and my brother is my whole life to me, and I know I am his life and reason for living. We aren't just brother and sister, we are the best of friends, soulmates and the other half to each others wings. We have a very close and intimate relationship, which includes lovemaking. I can't sleep at night without him being by my side, I cry when he is in the hospital, etc. To me, there is only one person I have ever loved, and ever will, and that is my sweet darling brother.

FME: What was your relationship with your brother like prior to the inclusion of sex?

I have always been close to my brother, even as children we always seemed to get on better with each other than all our other siblings. We were raised by our parents in a very close knit community, which was quite hard, mainly because it became so difficult to hide our relationship away. Mum and Dad always said we were like 2 peas in the same pod even as children.

FME: When/how did you first realize sex with your brother was a possibility and that you wanted it? Did such feelings seem strange to you or like something you had previously considered to be wrong?

I knew by the age of 13. I was very sexually attracted to my brother, but even though we both had the sexual attraction towards each other, we didn’t make love for the first time until a couple of years later. To us there was nothing wrong or strange with our feelings; it always felt just right. We had built our love up from an early age and to both of us, love isn't wrong. How can sexual attraction be wrong when you have the love there?

FME: Who made the first move? How did it happen? Was it planned or spontaneous?

I don't really think either of us made the first move. We had been in love for 4 years before we became sexually active like that. It was one of those moments that just felt it was right for the both of us. I know the first time we made love, I felt… well, how to put this... home.

It was the most heavenly and loving feeling I had ever felt in the world, and I knew that  I wanted my brother to be my one and only for the rest of my life from that point on.

We built our love up over many years. At 11 years old, I was craving to just be with him even if it was doing homework together and holding his hand under the table. At that age you do get confused with emotions and feelings, but then this is the learning process as you grow up, but to me, it always felt right. Of course we had ups and downs, we argued, we fought at times, but we always kissed and made up, literally. Even at an early age, we always managed to slip away for a moment to have a kiss before bed.

There were times that I doubted myself, and whether I would always be able to give my brother the love he deserved, but this was more prevalent during his times of illness and hospitalisation.

One thing that I always knew though, no matter how ill he got, I loved him. I would even play truant from school just to visit him in the hospital, etc. This was my loved one, my one and only, and I would have and still would do anything for him. He really is my one, my only, my heart, my soul, my every waking breath, and always will be. I have never wanted to be with anyone else; I have only ever wanted my brother.

FME: Some say a consanguinamorous brother and sister are kinky by definition, but I disagree and notice that most consanguinamorous relationships look like any other relationship, although usually with much more intensity. Do you feel like your relationship is taboo, and if so, do you like that or get a thrill from that? Or does it feel normal?

What is taboo about love? Our hearts and souls choose who we love, and who we want to share our lives with, so when you find that one special person, then how can it be so wrong or taboo? We are a strong loving couple, we have been brought up together, we have learned as kids more about each other than many couples would learn about each other in a lifetime. So what that we are brother and sister? We are a strong, loving couple, and always will be. A relationship is built on love, trust, security, the ability to communicate with each other, and the ability to still learn more about each other. We have the advantage of having a whole lifetime of building this up with each other. Therefore, I feel it is a much stronger relationship, and definitely a more loving one, that many would never find in their lifetime.

FME: Does anyone in your life know the full, true nature/history of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted? Are you able to act like a couple in public... does anyone know you as a couple but not as brother and sister? What kind of steps, if any, have you had to take to keep your privacy?

We have a very supportive family, and they know everything about our relationship. That included our grandparents. Our doctor and my brother’s medical team know about our relationship also. They had inklings years ago, and we finally admitted our relationship to his team, and they don't even batter an eyelid now. They just see the couple we are.

It was mum and dad that caught us out big-time. They found us sound asleep cuddled up naked together, so really there was no hiding from that point. Yeah, it caused hell at first, but after they realised that we had actually been in love for 4 years by this time, they took the difficult decision to support us.

Now, if you look at us, you would see a normal husband and wife relationship, we walk down the street holding hands etc, but then that's all we are... a strong loving couple. This is why we made the decision to move to a different city over 200 miles away from our original home.

FME: Having to hide the full nature of your relationship from some people can be a disadvantage. Are there any other disadvantages? Conversely, do you think family members have some advantages and some things better than unrelated lovers?

Hiding away always has disadvantages, but it's how you make the best or worst of the situation that will either make or break you as a couple. Of course being in the type of relationship we are in would seem so taboo and wrong to society, so you have to be strong enough in each other and as a couple to be able to hide the fact you are related.

It hasn't been a bed of roses for us, in fact it's been hell at times. When we first got found out, it nearly broke us and the family to pieces. We have also had to make the conscious decision to have no more contact with our eldest brother, due to sibling rivalry. He wanted a bit of what we had together, but only the sexual part. So we were left with no choice but to literally disown him. So there are a lot of disadvantages.

FME: You're an attractive woman. Some people do know you are brother and sister, or did when you were younger. How do/did you deal with people who are interested in dating you, or with people who want to fix you up with someone, or ask you why you're not with someone?

The only people that know I am living with my brother are our family and medical teams; apart from that we are a 'married' couple. Of course when I was younger I had people try and pick me up, but my brother was always by my side, and if they knew us as brother and sister, then he would defend me by saying something like "Are you trying to hit on my sister?" If nobody knew who we were, then he would come over and be the man I love, and hold me kiss me, and then say something like "Hey loser, are you trying to pick up my WIFE!?!"

I would also do the same for him, but nowadays we don't have anyone see us as anything different as husband and wife. I wear his ring, and he wears mine. As highlanders we took a decision to declare our love to each other formally in front of those we loved, so we had a Celtic commitment ceremony. To us this was our marriage, and from that point we became in our hearts husband and wife, and with that we dedicated our life and our love to each other.

So no matter who finds me attractive, my heart, my soul, my body, my everything, belongs to my brother, and always will.

FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your relationship, or disapprove of anyone having this kind of relationship? What's your reply to those who would say that if a brother and sister have this kind of relationship, it is only because the sister is being victimized by the brother?

I would like to say that you have the biggest disability of all: a negative attitude. Take time to see the couple we are, take time to listen and learn, after all we are all the same underneath, we all have the same feelings and emotions, we all love and can be loved, so why should we not be with the one person who makes us feel complete?

There is a difference between a consensual relationship and one that is non-consensual. That’s what defines the difference between a relationship and abuse. If you are not willing to learn about our type of relationship, then it's YOU that's making us the victims. So aren't you the ones abusing us by victimizing us?

FME: What advice do you have for someone who is curious or has romantic or sexual feelings for a close relative? What advice do you have for parents who find out their children (perhaps still living at home) are involved with each other?

For those who are curious, I would say keep at as curiosity only. Your heart will tell you if this will ever come to anything, so follow it, and even if you never end up in a relationship, you will always have a close bond.

For those who have sexual feelings to a close relationship, I would ask them to question if they aren't confusing love with lust. There is one heck of a difference. Lust can't make you feel complete; it's nothing but sexual desire. So even though you may have sexual feelings, is it really worth ruining what you have learned together over the years because of lust? Think long and hard. If you know 100% that you have sexual feelings because of love, then follow your hearts. If it's just lust, then it's time to back away.

For the family and relatives, my advice would be quite simple. You are the family and loved ones that make us the people who we are from a very early stage of life. You teach us what is right and wrong, yet as adults, you choose to become childish if you refuse to listen and even try to understand. Love chooses it's path for everyone. You brought us into this world because of love. You gave us the ability to understand things in life, so don't lose it yourself by refusing to understand us.

FME: If you could get legally married, and that included protections against discrimination, harassment, etc., would you?

In a heartbeat. My brother is my life, he is everything I could ever want in a man. I have loved him for 24 years now, he is the only man I have loved and ever will, so even though we live as husband and wife, it would be dream come true to legally marry him.

FME: Any plans for the future?

We find it difficult to make long term plans because of the health problems that my brother will suffer from throughout his life. Due to his medical condition, we both know he will spend the whole of his life having tests, having tumours form, and one day it will claim his life, so we live and love every day of our lives for what it is.

However next year, we are having a family party to celebrate that we have been together 25 years.

FME: Do you know in-person others who have had relationships like yours?

Only online. We keep our relationship quite private and we want people to see us as a couple, and we see everyone else for who they are. So we may have met other couples like us and not known it; we just see everyone for the loving people we all are and can be.

FME: Anything else you want to add?

We all love for the same reason: our hearts and souls tell us that the person we are with is the right one for us. Follow your heart, listen to your soul. When you know your heart, mind and soul speak as one, it's right. Love never judges anyone, so don't judge until you fully understand. We may be related, but look past that, see us for who we are. 

He's my brother, yet he's also my bear. He’s a Grizzly in his fight to give disabled people the right to lead as normal a life as you and me, yet my Teddy Bear when he's in my arms. Don't discriminate us, don't judge us. We have a right to live and love, just like everybody else does.

*****



Dear reader, if you can read that and still support laws against consanguinamory and still think it is acceptable to deny siblings the right to marry and deny marriage equality, then I don’t see how you can live with yourself. It is cruel and heartless to discriminate against, ridicule, and criminalize such a beautiful and pure love. If only most marriages in this world were anything close to this loving, the world would be a better place.


Thanks again to Bearsbaby for sharing.

If you are in a relationship involving conanguinamory or consensual incest, know someone who is, support those who are, or just want to know more about such relationships, I’m not aware of any better place to discuss them than the Kindred Spirits forum. Also, please join the group I Support Full Marriage Equality on Facebook.

You can read other interviews like this here.

If you are in, or have been in, a “forbidden” consensual relationship, and want to be interviewed, please contact me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,incest,lack of equality harms,love,monogamy,siblings,UK

Another Ally For the Polygamous Freedom to Marry

Professor Mark Goldfeder makes a compelling case for the polygamous freedom to marry. He wrote on "Polygamy and DOMA" at sltrib.com...

The plural marriage movement is real. An estimated 50,000 to 150,000 polygamous families already live in America, from the well-publicized Muslims and Mormons to the African and Vietnamese immigrants keeping up their cultural ways. From modern feminists looking for a better work/life balance, to family traditionalists, who maintain that any marriage is better than none in the fight against the rising tide of single parents, cohabitation, and divorce.

Over 500,000 others identify as polyamorous, and engage in "ethical non-monogamy" — loving, committed, concurrent, consensual relationships with multiple partners.

I think that estimate is on the extremely low side. Many polyamorous people have never been part of any survey or polyamory group and may not even be out.

Experts say that 30 to 60 percent of married people in the U.S. will commit adultery over the course of their ‘exclusive, dyadic relationships,’ producing a form of de facto polygamy.

While that certainly means the relationships are not monogamous, in most cases it probably can't be called polygamy or polyamory, which are terms that imply all involved have agreed to the relationships.

Thousands of others will actually marry a second, sometimes even a third person, albeit after a legal divorce from their original spouse.

Yes. Very few people are truly monogamous over the course of their lifetime.

While some believe that plural marriage could lead to harm against women, regulation would protect them.

Gender inequality under the law harms women, not polygamy. A woman should have just as much right to marry multiple spouses as a man.

Those who would argue against plural marriage have their work cut out for them. The Bible records at least 40 instances of the practice. Confucianism, Islam, Hinduism, and some forms of Mormonism also support it. While Catholicism bans it, other forms of Christianity are somewhat less opposed.

Plural marriage is legal in more than 150 countries, with an estimated 2 billion practitioners and 3 billion supporters. Anthropologists believe that it was the norm through most of human history, until the sixth century Christian influence of the Roman Emperor Justinian. As a North American value, plural marriage is older than monogamy. According to one study of Native American tribes, a full 84 percent of them practiced it.

Natural law arguments also fail. Biologists lately have discovered that in the animal kingdom, there is almost no such thing as monogamy.

There is no good reason to deny the polygamous freedom to marry. Let's stop quibbling over which adults get which relationship rights. More and more people are realizing that an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. Full marriage equality will happen. Let's make it sooner rather than later.

Read more »

Posted in: allies,DOMA,freedom to marry,law,monogamy,polyamory,polygamy,religion,USA

Another Ally For the Polygamous Freedom to Marry

Professor Mark Goldfeder makes a compelling case for the polygamous freedom to marry. He wrote on "Polygamy and DOMA" at sltrib.com...

The plural marriage movement is real. An estimated 50,000 to 150,000 polygamous families already live in America, from the well-publicized Muslims and Mormons to the African and Vietnamese immigrants keeping up their cultural ways. From modern feminists looking for a better work/life balance, to family traditionalists, who maintain that any marriage is better than none in the fight against the rising tide of single parents, cohabitation, and divorce.

Over 500,000 others identify as polyamorous, and engage in "ethical non-monogamy" — loving, committed, concurrent, consensual relationships with multiple partners.

I think that estimate is on the extremely low side. Many polyamorous people have never been part of any survey or polyamory group and may not even be out.

Experts say that 30 to 60 percent of married people in the U.S. will commit adultery over the course of their ‘exclusive, dyadic relationships,’ producing a form of de facto polygamy.

While that certainly means the relationships are not monogamous, in most cases it probably can't be called polygamy or polyamory, which are terms that imply all involved have agreed to the relationships.

Thousands of others will actually marry a second, sometimes even a third person, albeit after a legal divorce from their original spouse.

Yes. Very few people are truly monogamous over the course of their lifetime.

While some believe that plural marriage could lead to harm against women, regulation would protect them.

Gender inequality under the law harms women, not polygamy. A woman should have just as much right to marry multiple spouses as a man.

Those who would argue against plural marriage have their work cut out for them. The Bible records at least 40 instances of the practice. Confucianism, Islam, Hinduism, and some forms of Mormonism also support it. While Catholicism bans it, other forms of Christianity are somewhat less opposed.

Plural marriage is legal in more than 150 countries, with an estimated 2 billion practitioners and 3 billion supporters. Anthropologists believe that it was the norm through most of human history, until the sixth century Christian influence of the Roman Emperor Justinian. As a North American value, plural marriage is older than monogamy. According to one study of Native American tribes, a full 84 percent of them practiced it.

Natural law arguments also fail. Biologists lately have discovered that in the animal kingdom, there is almost no such thing as monogamy.

There is no good reason to deny the polygamous freedom to marry. Let's stop quibbling over which adults get which relationship rights. More and more people are realizing that an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. Full marriage equality will happen. Let's make it sooner rather than later.

Read more »

Posted in: allies,DOMA,freedom to marry,law,monogamy,polyamory,polygamy,religion,USA

Polyamory and Feminism

Ever hear that polygamy is patriarchal, often because someone thinks all polygamy is religion-based polygyny? Well you can listen to a podcast asking if feminism is incompatible with monogamy.

Some question whether monogamy is a patriarchal invention that mainly benefits men and functions as a mechanism of control. In response, some people practice non-monogamy as an alternative. But is non-monogamy necessarily 'more' feminist? Is monogamy necessarily contradictory to feminist ideals?

I'm a male, and have always been a male, and my humble opinion is that it is feminist to raise girls to be women empowered to be independent and truly free to make their own choices about their relationships. A woman, like a man, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, stigmas, shaming, double-standards, or discrimination. Some people need monogamy. Others are polyamorous. Some can be happy either in monogamous or polyamorous relationships. Others feel more fulfilled in some form of ethical nonmonogamy that might not be described as polyamory. Nobody should be telling a grown woman that she can't have the kind of relationship she desires and mutually enters with other adults.

In this episode, your host, Meghan Murphy speaks with Meg Barker, senior lecturer in psychology at the Open University, a sex and relationship therapist, and the author of Rewriting the Rules: An Integrative Guide to Love, Sex and Relationships about some of the reasons people might enter into non-monogamous relationships as well as some of the challenges they might face. Later on the show we hear from Katie, an undergraduate student in her late twenties, who shares her experiences navigating a non-monogamous relationship as a feminist.

If you listen, let me know what you think.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,monogamy,polyamory,polygamy

Polyamory and Feminism

Ever hear that polygamy is patriarchal, often because someone thinks all polygamy is religion-based polygyny? Well you can listen to a podcast asking if feminism is incompatible with monogamy.

Some question whether monogamy is a patriarchal invention that mainly benefits men and functions as a mechanism of control. In response, some people practice non-monogamy as an alternative. But is non-monogamy necessarily 'more' feminist? Is monogamy necessarily contradictory to feminist ideals?

I'm a male, and have always been a male, and my humble opinion is that it is feminist to raise girls to be women empowered to be independent and truly free to make their own choices about their relationships. A woman, like a man, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, stigmas, shaming, double-standards, or discrimination. Some people need monogamy. Others are polyamorous. Some can be happy either in monogamous or polyamorous relationships. Others feel more fulfilled in some form of ethical nonmonogamy that might not be described as polyamory. Nobody should be telling a grown woman that she can't have the kind of relationship she desires and mutually enters with other adults.

In this episode, your host, Meghan Murphy speaks with Meg Barker, senior lecturer in psychology at the Open University, a sex and relationship therapist, and the author of Rewriting the Rules: An Integrative Guide to Love, Sex and Relationships about some of the reasons people might enter into non-monogamous relationships as well as some of the challenges they might face. Later on the show we hear from Katie, an undergraduate student in her late twenties, who shares her experiences navigating a non-monogamous relationship as a feminist.

If you listen, let me know what you think.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,monogamy,polyamory,polygamy

Polymory, Monogamy, and Cheating

The very helpful Charlie Glickman reminds us that "Polyamory Isn't An Alternative to Cheating"...

Polyamory isn’t an alternative to cheating, it’s an alternative to monogamy.

He goes on to explain...

You know what the alternative to cheating is? Honesty, communication, and abiding by your agreements. No matter what relationship works for you, no matter how many partners you have at any given time, the alternative to cheating is being honest with yourself and with your partner(s), and doing what you say you will.

I get that if you’re unhappy in an ostensibly monogamous relationship or if your needs aren’t being met, there can be a temptation to seek someone outside those boundaries. And you know what? People in open relationships sometimes do the same thing. After all, just because your relationship is open doesn’t necessarily mean you feel comfortable telling your partner(s) what you want, and sometimes, people cheat.

Cheating is breaking the rules, whichever rules you choose.

The only sense in which polyamory is ever "an alternative to cheating" is when someone who has tried to be monogamous, who has promised to be monogamous, but has ended up cheating, is honest with himself or herself and partner and admits monogamy isn't for them, and that they are polyamorous.... if that is indeed the case. There is a difference between a polyamorous person who has tried and failed to be monogamous and someone who is hostile or destructive to their partner, and that has expressed itself in cheating. This difference must be determined or the cheater will likely cheat even in a polyamorous relationship.

All of these issues can be dealt with better if polyamorous people are protected against discrimination. Punishing people for being polyamorous makes things worse for all, including pressuring polyamorists into make promises of monogamy.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,cheating,monogamy,polyamory

Another Ally For the Polygamous Freedom to Marry

I asked if Brazil will lead the way to full marriage equality. Responding to the same story, Jean Hannah Edelstein asked at guardian.co.uk, "Why shouldn't three people get married?"

Photograph: Stone/Getty Images

And yet as we shoehorn ourselves into two-by-two formation, we're not that good at keeping our promises: as Helen Croydon has pointed out, breaking the boundaries of monogamy is far from unusual. Plenty of marriages have three people in them. They're just not legal ones.

I know a beautiful triad, or thruple. They want to get married under the law, and they have a marriage better than anything else I've seen. Why are they denied?

The government can dictate that two people should be in a marriage, but it can't legislate what will make them feel happy or stable or emotionally complete together. And if we accept that, as we do every time we allow anyone the freedom to make a decision about who they'll marry, and furthermore allow them the freedom to call each other by execrable pet names in public, then does it not begin to seem strange, just a bit, that we do allow the government to dictate how many people are allowed to pledge to be together forever?

It is not just strange, it is cruel. Some people couldn't be monogamous if their life depended on it. If three or more people have formed a spousal relationship or multiple spousal relationships in a construct that works for them, why deny them their right to marry?

Is it possible that if we allowed more people to marry simultaneously that more marriages might be successful?

Yes!

Here's a very important point...

Legalisation wouldn't send stampedes of people to the registry office in five-aside squads; for many of us, monogamy does feel the most comfortable option, whether it's because our brains aren't wired to love more than one person or because the prospect of making multiple people happy is too complex. But three's not a crowd for everyone. And as long as everyone is entering a marriage equally, as long as everyone is really going to make an effort to be open and honest to everyone else, it's probably not the government's job to tell them how many of them there should be.

Thank you! Thank you!!! It is great that more and more people are seeing that both the same-gender freedom to marry and the polygamous freedom to marry are good things. These rights should not be denied. This is why we will have full marriage equality.

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Posted in: allies,boundaries,Brazil,freedom to marry,law,monogamy,polyamory,polygamy,triads

A Loving Couple Denied the Freedom to Marry

[Note: I bumped this entry up because it deserves attention.]

[Anonymous Daughter] is a woman who had been regularly contributing to the original Genetic Sexual Attraction forum. That forum was mostly operated towards helping those who are struggling with their feelings of attraction and experiences related to reuniting with long-lost biological relatives, and for their family members who are dealing with the fallout. For some, though, the only struggle with GSA has to do with the prejudice and pressures from others, including people who have experienced GSA, who do not want them to have consanguinamorous relationships involving sexual contact. In other words, some people experiencing GSA do not struggle with it; they embrace and enjoy it.

[Anonymous Daughter], who stands up for those experiencing GSA and enjoying a consanguinamorous relationship, generously agreed to an interview. I think you’ll agree that her intelligence and character shine through in her answers. If you read through this and would still want to deny her the freedom to marry, then I question your humanity. Yet, there are many who not only want to deny her right to marry, but would throw her into prison and break up her family.

* * *

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background. Where are you from? Who raised you? What kind of childhood did you have?

[ANONYMOUS DAUGHTER]: I am from Canada. I was raised by my mother and maternal grandparents as an only child. I had what I would describe as an idyllic childhood until I was a teenager. Being the focus of four adults’ attention as a youngster can be both good and bad. My grandparents were actively involved in my upbringing as was my mother's brother. Each of them offered me many things of value. My grandfather and I were particularly close. I spent a great deal of time in academic and artistic pursuits, each fostered by at least one of these adults.

When I turned 13 my grandfather died, my mother separated from her second husband, my grandmother fell into alcoholism, my uncle got married and became a fundamentalist christian. I met my father for the first time that summer. It was a rough year. Obviously there were a lot of things I didn't understand at the time going on under the surface. Today, I can say I do but it was a long personal journey to really come to grips with who the people I loved were and how that impacted me. I've learned a great deal from it all but it was a travail.

I started visiting my father and writing him often at this point. I met my half-brother, who was eleven years younger than me, also. We weren't able to see one another that often and our visits were punctuated with long separations.


FME: You are in a spousal (including lovemaking) relationship with your biological father, correct? When did you first notice you had feelings for him? Before you noticed you had these feelings, had you ever thought of the concept of close biological relatives having this kind of love?

Yes. We were reunited the first time when I was a teenager. We had a conventional father daughter relationship externally but were to learn years later that we did not feel 'conventional' about each other then. I was struck with a physical and sexual attraction to him almost immediately. I squelched it. I thought I was 'sick' for feeling that way. We stayed in contact for six years at which point I couldn't handle how I felt anymore and not act on it so... I ran and never spoke to him again until twenty some odd years later.

I was aware that other bio relatives had incestuous relationships and had assumed it was an extension of childhood abuse. I realize now, of course, that this is not always the case. I had never heard of GSA relationships though, and had no idea of the GSA phenomenon happening to separated adults.




FME: How do you feel about the lovemaking side of your relationship? Is it a natural extension of your general feelings and love for him?

Absolutely.


FME: Aside from being father and daughter, is there any aspect of “kink” to you sexuality? Are you monogamous, in a closed relationship with each other?

No [there is no kink], and frankly there is no kink in being related when you speak about GSA. If you understand that GSA is a genetic reality brought about by separation then you understand that the sex is an aspect of the bonding that naturally occurs. It is our separation that results in our connecting as adults would ordinarily connect and not as parent and child.

We are monogamous.


FME: Who knows the full, true nature of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted? Does anyone know you as a couple, but not father and daughter?

Complete strangers know we are father and daughter. We are literally gender opposite mirrors of each other. The only people who know are my children and other GSA people we've connected with online and you, of course. My children came and asked the nature of our relationship early into our reunion. They were a little uncomfortable with it but all of them had come to terms with how it happened before they even came to me. It helped that two of my children are gay. There was some integral understanding of being persecuted for something you can’t help. It also helped that my father was just united with them for the first time last year. They are bio relatives but no ‘ick’ factor for them where he and I are concerned. I also think the striking similarity between him and I (not just looks, but personality) has made it much easier for them to trust him.


FME: It sounds like you had talked about your feelings for each other before the physical aspect of your relationship became sexual as opposed to the kind of affection between platonic friends or family members - is that right? Or had one of you made a pass at the other first? Was the first time there was sexual contact mutually planned ahead of time (like a date where you both knew this was going to happen), or just something that grew spontaneously out of the kissing/hugging/touching that was already going on?

We discussed at great length the feelings we never acted on but felt when we had reunited when I was a teenager and young adult. My father initially brought it up in order to make amends for something he never actually did but only felt. I reciprocated about my feelings at the time so that he was aware that his read on my behaviour was not his imagination. I was upset that he was taking on this mantle of guilt and self castigation for feelings we BOTH had, particularly when his behaviour towards me was entirely appropriate for a father towards his teenaged daughter. In addition I felt he had been heroic in ignoring the loud signals I was giving him at the time. My poor father... if we had only known about GSA BEFORE we reunited we could both have avoided hating ourselves for our feelings. Feelings that were never acted on until twenty plus years later... and feelings that lead to another twenty year separation-both of us running from each other rather than doing something 'sick' or 'perverted'. I was twenty the last time I saw him.

This led to our conversations about staying in each others lives, trying to understand what happened and why. Both of us committed to our relationship as father and daughter ahead of all else. That we would not allow ourselves to be separated again, no matter what else happened. We drew the conclusion before we knew about GSA, quite rightly, that the physical attraction was a replacement for the bonding we had missed and that it was okay even if others would not understand. That if we were to pursue our bonding through the sexual aspect of our relationship and it didn't last we would stay father and daughter.

The first time we had contact was spontaneous in the sense that we didn't plan it ahead of time. The conversations I describe above happened both before and after. This was a very fluid and intense experience. As far as making a 'pass' at each other is concerned, GSA isn't like that for us... the physical connection is very much about bonding. The line between hugging, kissing and being sexually intimate is blurred in GSA. It is an extension of who we really are to each other.


FME: Can you describe that first event where you gave yourselves to each other, especially your feelings?

This is very private to me, but I will say it is the most spiritual experience of my life.


FME: Do you think family members have some things better or some advantages that unrelated lovers might not, such as more intense feelings and lovemaking? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages?

I've mentioned several advantages already... the trust between my children and father is unparalleled. My children have connected with my father in a way they never could with a man I became involved with who was not a biological relative. That's huge. Anyone who has been in a step parent situation knows exactly what I mean. My father loved them instantly; he wanted what was best for them, not because of me but for themselves. There was never an attitude of 'putting up with them' in order to be with me.

I believe our level of commitment to one another is deeper because of the relationship. It is easier to be monogamous. The intensity of feeling both good and bad is deeper. Because we communicate well we have learned to handle the difficulties associated with that better, like jealousy (which is far more intense than in an ordinary couple) and sensitivity. We both have learned to be a little more careful in how we express things to each other as a result.

But the big advantage in this is: I am as certain as he is that we do not ever want to hurt each other. We understand that we each wield a great deal of power over injuring the other but that feeling is concurrent with the desire to have the other's happiness at almost any cost and certainly our own happiness is dependent on the other's. It's a difficult feeling to relate to if you have not experienced GSA, but it is truly selfless and imperative to be that way with one another. In most relationships that is an act of discipline, particularly when you are upset with the other person. In a GSA relationship it is a natural feeling and comes the most freely and quickly when you are upset with each other. Do I really need to explain to anyone who has ever been in a relationship why that would be a huge advantage? I'm guessing not.


FME: Do you have feelings for other close biological relative that are anything like the ones you have for your father, whether they are as intense or not?

No, not at all. Though to be fair, I haven't spent much time with any of them yet. My half-brother and I saw each other when he was twenty one and I didn't experience anything like the feelings I had for my father the first time we met.


FME: Some people say an adult daughter can’t possibly consent to sex with her biological father, and thus your father should be prosecuted under incest, rape, or sexual assault laws. What do you say to that?


It's a load of garbage. I am an adult woman under the law-I can consent to sex with anyone I want. As someone who has been raped and assaulted, I can personally tell you that what I have with my father is an act of mutual love.


FME: Some people who have experienced Genetic Sexual Attraction, whether or not they have had sex with the person(s) to whom they are attracted, insist it is wrong for close biological relatives to have sex, even if they are not prohibited by existing vows to others, and discourage others experiencing GSA from making love. What do you say to that?

That's their personal choice. Don't burden everyone with your personal judgments on what is right for you must be right for everyone. My opinion is this: By automatically removing the physical expression of GSA from the equation they could be allowing society to determine for them what the outcome of GSA should be. Because of the taboo, the illegality of sexual contact with a biological relative, these people are allowing people who haven't experienced GSA rob them a second time of bonding with their relative in the way that nature has intended. I think it's a pretty dangerous thing to define any adult human relationship in black and white terms. I know what my father and I required to heal what we had lost... and even if we had not decided to stay in a committed relationship with each other, the sexual aspect of our reuniting was required to heal those wounds. That may not be the case for others... it's not for me to judge.


FME: Would you get legally married if you could, and if that included protection from things such as bullying and workplace discrimination based on your relationship?

I've been asked and have accepted, in the event the laws ever change.


FME: What are your plans for the future?

To live out our lives together in peace and love ensuring neither we nor any family members we love are ever separated unnaturally again.


FME: Do you personally know (not just online), or have you met in person other consanguinamorous couples (that you are aware of)?

Other than couples via online forums, no. And that's not surprising... we are not allowed to live openly without fear of legal prosecution.


FME: What advice do you have to someone who has romantic or sexual feelings for a close biological relative?

Open, honest communication. Educate yourself about GSA if you were separated during childhood. Do not let society or other people define your path to healing and connection.


FME: Is there is anything else you want to add?

The more thought I give to GSA, to my GSA partner and our relationship, the more I feel that this is the new frontier, following the breakdown of the societal barriers toward homosexuality.

Where the support is required for all of us, in my opinion, is living with GSA in this society or in handling the strong inescapable feelings should you or your GSA partner be in a committed relationship with another when you meet. The other obvious area of support is for people about to reunite- they should be educated and aware that this could happen to them so they can make an educated decision about pursuing reunion. But I am uncomfortable with, in truth, angered by the idea that any of us need to be 'cured' or 'fixed'. We are not broken for feeling this way.

I have read a lot of GSA stories and heartbreaks. And I long for the posts by people who have come to terms with how they feel, those who are living with their GSA partner, aware that they are not ill but are social pariahs because society does not understand that this is not an illness or some twisted sexual deviation... it is a genetic reality brought on by separation. Just as homosexuality is genetic. And that we are treated publicly the same as gays and lesbians and biracial couples were 40 years ago.

The maelstrom is coming. As more and more people connect with their adoptive relatives, as more and more children of IVF accidentally marry their blood relatives, as more and more of us already in this situation process their own personal journey and wake up to the reality of their own innocence in all of it, the quiet whispers of our agony will become a screaming cry of outrage for freedom. Freedom from judgement, freedom from social persecution, freedom from criminal penalty, freedom to have the same legal rights and protection as any other couple.


* * *


They want to marry. They should have their freedom to marry. This is another example of why we need full marriage equality. Denying them their right to marry is unfairly hindering them. They have a loving marital relationship.



If you are experiencing GSA, a consanguinamorous relationship, a polyamorous relationship, or some other relationship involving consenting adults that faces prejudice or prosecution and you’d like to be interviewed or otherwise tell your story of your relationship or identity, please contact me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com.

You can also support full marriage equality on Facebook:

Group: I Support Full Marriage Equality!

Causes: I Support Full Marriage Equality!

I don't expect to be blogging much this weekend. Especially if you're new to this blog, I recommend checking the blogroll and links found in the column on the right and reading through the archives here.

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Posted in: Canada,children,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,love,monogamy,reunion