Showing posts with label family reaction. Show all posts
Showing posts with label family reaction. Show all posts

Monday, March 10, 2014

Zambia Keeps Prosecuting Consenting Adults For Marrying

Another news item out of Zambia details the prosecuting of consenting adults in an attempt to break up a marriage. If you think this only happens in Africa, you are sorely mistaken. Where I live, in the US, many states still prosecute in these cases, and it happens in many other countries as well. Chambo Ng'uni reports at dail-mail.co.zm...

A 27-YEAR-OLD man of Kabwe and his young sister aged 20 have appeared in the Kabwe Magistrate’s Court to answer to charges of incest.
 

Aaron Musonda an electrician and Maureen Musonda a grade 12 pupil in Kabwe both appeared before Kabwe resident magistrate John Mbuzi on Thursday for explanation of the charge of incest.
The accused persons are both residents of Makululu Township and they share the same father but different mothers.

So they are half siblings. For all we know they were not raised together and this is a case of Genetic Sexual Attraction.
The police have slapped Musonda with a charge of incest by males contrary to Section 159(1) of the Penal Code Chapter 87 of the laws of Zambia.
 

It is alleged that Musonda on dates unknown but between December 1 last year and February 27 this year in Kabwe, knowing that Maureen was his sister, allegedly had unlawful carnal knowledge of her.
 

His sister has been charged with incest by females, contrary to Section 161 of the Penal Code Chapter 87 of the Laws of Zambia.
 
The court heard that Maureen on dates unknown but between December 1 last year and February 27 this year in Kabwe, allegedly permitted her elder brother to have sex with her.

And...? What's the problem? Notice, no explanation of harm to anyone is cited in the article.
The police at Kasanda Police Station last Friday confirmed that the two were reported to the police by their father who wanted the police to end their marriage.

What a rat. So it is OK for him to have sex with and impregnate at least two women, but not OK for other consenting adults to love each other? He should have read this.
A police source said according to their father, siblings allegedly got married last year and when their family attempted to end their affair they fled Kabwe.
 

The source said they resurfaced this year, and their family heard that they were renting a house in Makululu.

Renting a house! Oh, those scary people! Seriously, what a waste of law enforcement resources. Let them be together, and let them marry if they want. There is no good reason to deny them their rights.

Thursday, March 6, 2014

Why the South Needs Full Marriage Equality

This is why the South and the rest of the US needs full marriage equality sooner rather than later. It is an interview at The Final Manifesto with a woman who is denied the right to marry the other parent of her child.

You can read interviews I have done here.

Tuesday, March 4, 2014

Newspaper Editorial Calls For Hate

A newspaper in Zambia is calling for more hate in response to recent shocking discoveries that people are loving each other even though they are siblings. Here is the editorial at daily-mail.co.zm...

THE continued reports of incestuous marriages in Central Province are worrying and raise many social and psychological questions.
What is there to worry about?

We urge relevant Government organs and non-governmental organisations to carry out a research to establish if this could be widespread and unravel the factors that could be driving people in this particular province into such marriages.

Yes, it is common. What is driving them to it is usually the same thing that drives any lovers.

This kind of behaviour should not be allowed to take root because it could have devastating social and biological consequences.

Such as...? Such as...? They got nuthin'.
Human beings are not animals that are ruled by instinct. We are ruled by reason.
Some of us are ruled by reason. Others want to interfere in the marriages of strangers.

Surely, how could a brother and sister have the courage to engage in a sexual relationship and even have children between them?
I can show you video.
This does not happen even in the most liberal and morally depraved western societies.
This happens everywhere and always has.
Incest is a criminal offence in Zambia.
Not for any good reason

It is disturbing to imagine the stigma the innocent children that could be born out of such a perverted marriage would have to endure.

Uh, then stop stigmatizing them.

What a pile of crap that editorial is. I hope the person who wrote it doesn't actually get paid for that drivel.

Saturday, March 1, 2014

New Republic Insults Hundreds of Millions

Alice Robb wrote at "The Strange Scholarship of Incest" at newrepublic.com...
Whether or not Meryl Streep deserves to win Best Actress for her turn as the deranged matriarch in August: Osage County is up for debate, but everyone who’s seen Tracy Letts’s play or the film adaptation should be able to agree on at least one thing: It makes for some uncomfortable viewing. And of all the disturbing elements that make up this saga—alcoholism, suicide, adultery—there’s one plotline that stands out as truly disturbing: the incestuous romance between Ivy and Little Charles, who believe they’re first cousins but—spoiler alert—turn out to be half-siblings.

Why is that disturbing?

Disgust seems like a pretty appropriate response to an affair between cousins, but historically, in societies around the world, marriage between cousins has been accepted and even encouraged.

And yet she calls it disgusting anyway, insulting hundreds of millions of people, including her own ancestors. Then she gets into that big question...
Is the taboo against incest a biological universal, or is it culturally derived? And if it’s a cultural construct, why is it so widespread?

Ultimately, when it comes to whether or not consenting adults should have their rights, the answer to that question isn't relevant.

“I’m not saying that it’s fine, but I think the genetic risks of incest are probably overestimated,” said Diane Paul, a professor at the University of Massachusetts Boston whose research focuses on the history of evolution and genetics.

It certainly is.

“It’s assumed it would be higher, but there’s a huge bias of ascertainment,” she explains. “If you have a baby [that’s the product of incest] with a problem, people say, ‘Oh, that’s why,’ but if the baby is healthy, no one says, ‘Look at that healthy baby’ [that’s the product of incest].”

DING! We have a winner.

“In terms of genetic distance, a half-sibling relationship is equivalent to an uncle-niece relationship or a double first cousin relationship” [double first cousins share both sets of grandparents], both of which are quite common in different societies,” says Alan Bittles, a researcher at the Centre for Comparative Genomics at Murdoch University in Australia.

Double first cousins can legally marry in some US states.

The article then gets into Westermarck.

It is very simple... if YOU are disgusted by something, don't do it. But it is rude, cruel, and unjust to try to stop consenting adults in love from being together.

Friday, February 28, 2014

Taking the Steps

I have frequently seen the question asked, “It is incest to date my stepbrother?” or “Would marrying my stepsister be incestuous?”

Romance, dating, sex, or marriage between step relations is not literally consanguinamory, but is often subject to the same prejudices, which in some places and cases includes criminalization, as consanguinamorous relationships. With Discredited Argument #18 not a factor, the excuse to try to deny others their relationships is usually Discredited Arguments #1, 3, 19, or 21.

Although someone may try to control our relationships, we can’t effectively control what other people do with their love lives and we shouldn’t try. We don’t pick who our family members love or marry. As such, sometimes someone is brought into our lives as a step relation, such as a stepbrother, stepsister, stepmother, or stepfather whether we like it or not.

Sometimes, we like it. A lot.



Perhaps the most common connection between step relationships is when adults marry and their adolescent or young adult children, who are made stepsiblings, find they are mutually attracted. The Westermarck Effect, which describes the suppression of sexual attraction between people raised together in the same home or close quarters, isn’t experienced by everyone but doesn’t have even a chance to be experienced if young people don’t meet or don’t spend much time together until their pre-teen years or later, as often happens in these cases.

Each of us is our parent’s child. If the person we share genes with and raised us is attracted to someone, is it really surprising that we’d be attracted to that someone’s child? This is especially the case if new stepsiblings spend time under the same roof, perhaps on a full-time basis.

There is no good reason why the relationship of persons A and B should prevent the relationship of persons C and D.

But what about when one person ends up having two lovers from the same family? That can happen if there is a relationship between a stepparent and a stepchild, including cases in which the stepparent never knew the stepchild as a minor. (As always, I’m talking about consenting adults in this entry, or minors close in age to each other.) Perhaps things didn’t work out between the stepparent and the parent, or the parent died, or there’s a polyamorous situation, meaning the parent is still involved. Sometimes, someone’s stepparent is actually from their generation or at least closer in age to them than their parent, due to their parent having entered into an intergenerational relationship. The important thing to remember is that we are talking about consenting adults in these cases. One person’s prejudice against intergenerational relationships or against someone having more than one lover from the same family should not have any control over such consensual relationships.

Relationships like these have existed throughout history. There are also other relationships that have meant someone has (or has had) more than one lover from the same family. Traditional polyandry usually involves brothers marrying the same woman, and many polygynous males marry sisters. Having both mother and daughter or father and son as lovers is a common fantasy, and does happen. (I have had my own experience.)

Someone considering a relationship with a stepsibling, stepparent, or adult stepchild should make many of the same considerations as I have encouraged people to make when it comes to consanguinamorous relationships, and, if applicable, what I wrote about intergenerational relationships.

Parents may not like it when their stepchild gets together with their child, but the parent should remember that it wasn’t the children that created the environment in which they found themselves. Isn’t it better they get along rather than fight? Anyone upset about step relations getting together should read this.

Family strife is one thing. Law is another. There is no good reason to have laws discriminating against adults for their consensual relationships.

Are you, or have you been, involved with a step relation, or someone who later became one? Tell us about it by commenting.

Saturday, February 22, 2014

Has Your Partner Experienced Consanguinamory?

I used be active at a certain Big Internet Portal's Question and Answer service, until someone who couldn’t handle me answering questions truthfully when it comes to certain romantic or sexual topics decided to get me "suspended" using a weakness in their automated system. I still will check to see what questions are being asked there, even though I can't participate in any way or even contact anyone there unless they have somehow provided an email address in their question or answer. I will not link to the service, but I will quote it. Someone named Lauren asked this question...

Ok.....complicated one, recently found out my husband and his younger sister had sex for a number of years between the ages of 10-12, this is what he's telling me tho I'm aware this may have more to it? We are a young couple married with two children (boys) my relationship with his family has never been great and this hasn't helped! Can anyone give me any advice or your thoughts on how you would deal with this news? I'm up and down and so confused.....

Questions like this come up more than people might think. Person A is dating or married to Person B and Person A suspects or has found out that Person B has been sexually involved with a sibling or other family member. Person A usually wants to know what they should do.

It is important to clarify the situation by determining the answers to some questions.

1) Is this something that is suspected or has it been confirmed?



Not all families have the same behaviors and boundaries when it comes to physical affection, personal space, joking, and otherwise talking. As such, Person A can look at how Person B interacts with a sibling and think, “I wouldn’t interact with my sibling that way, only a partner” and so think that Person B must have sexual experience with their family member. It isn’t necessarily the case, though. On the other hand, with as common as consanguineous experimentation and sex is, it isn’t unreasonable to wonder.

Unless someone comes right out and makes a clear, credible statement either way, there probably isn’t an easy way to get the truth that will not cause some embarrassment.  One way of handling it could be in expressing needs and negotiating boundaries. Even if someone is monogamous, they should never assume their relationship is monogamous unless that has been explicitly discussed. So perhaps one oblique way of trying to determine if there’s anything current is to say, “I need monogamy. Is that going to be a problem?” Or, if polyamorous, saying “I need to know exactly who else you are going to be having sex with.” Trying to determine if anything happened in the past is going to take being a little less vague. It might be helpful to say something like this, in a nonjudgmental tone: “I was reading that a surprisingly high percentage of people have had sexual experiences with a close family member, enough that everyone knows somebody who has. But I’m not aware of anyone I know who has. Are you?” Depending on how serious the relationship is getting, the questioning can get more direct, because if someone is going to be creating a family with someone else, they should be talking about the dynamics and family history of both families.


2) Was this something that happened in the past or is it ongoing?

If confirmation is obtained, it is important to know whether the sexual aspect of the relationship is likely over for good or if it is ongoing or could easily resume. If it ended, when, why, and how did it end?


3) Was this consensual activity or was it assault/molestation?


I don’t classify assault or molestation as sexual activity or experimentation, as I think those are entirely different things. But as far as abuse or molestation goes, there is a difference between a 12-year-old grabbing his 10-year-old sister once to upset her and realizing it was a terrible thing to do and a 14-year-old forcing themselves on a 7-year-old repeatedly and trying to excuse it with “kids will be kids.” If someone is planning to raise kids with their partner, they should not ignore a history of child abuse.

Some kids engage in mutual exploration or experimentation. Most therapists don’t consider it abusive if minor family members close in age explore by mutual agreement. A 13-year-old and a 12-year-old might be curious. A 20-year-old and an 18-year-old might be in love. And that brings us to another question.


4) If this was a consensual thing in the past, was it a one-time event, a casual family-with-benefits thing, a love affair, or what?

They may have engaged in everything from a one-time instance of playing doctor or some other game, or had an ongoing love affair that they thought was going to last forever. Or perhaps there was something in between. That matters.


Discovering that your partner is cheating on you, deeply in love with a sibling, is a different matter than finding out that your partner used to masturbate in front of a sibling when they were teens, for mutual enjoyment, and both are different than finding out that your partner assaulted three relatives.

Going back to the question that prompted this entry, it wasn’t clear whether both of the siblings were "10-12" or not. Assuming they were close in age, it was not a matter of abuse, and everything ended before they were even teenagers, then there’s nothing for Lauren to do, unless she thinks it is causing ongoing problems in her marriage, in which case she should seek marriage therapy and perhaps individual therapy. If he is a good father and a good husband, she should be happy knowing that he chose to marry her and loves her. That should outweigh what happened in his childhood, even if she thinks what happened is wrong.

All of the above refers to interaction with siblings, cousins or even aunts/uncles who are close in age. There is a different dynamic if the involvement was with an older aunt/uncle, parent, or grandparent (or, in the case of someone who is older, an adult child). Again, abuse is a whole different matter than consensual sex between adults. But consensual adult intergenerational sex does happen, perhaps not as often as intragenerational, but it happens.

If someone is not in a committed relationship, but is rather just dating someone, and they think the other person is “too close” to a family member, they are entirely free to stop seeing them. A casual outsider is not going to change family dynamics, and trying to do so will likely make everyone unhappy. Who wants to be suspicious that their partner is cheating with anyone, let alone a family member? A consanguinamorous bond can be an especially powerful one, and if someone suspects they are dating someone who is has such a bond, issuing an ultimatum will likely mean the dating will end.

Like anything else about a partner’s sexual history, it comes down to knowing what you’ll accept and what you won’t (and what you need to know to begin with). While you may be missing out on a great partner if you “can’t” accept some of the consensual sex in their past or that they will not tell you something, it isn’t a good idea to get in deeper with someone if you’re going to end up holding that aspect of their past against them.

Conversely, if you'll love them and let them know they can be honest with you about their past and whether or not it (still) holds an erotic charge for them, you can have a great time or a great life together, especially if you are willing to sometimes play off of that history in fantasies.

Thursday, February 20, 2014

Discovering Consanguinamory in the Family Tree

I am [or, had been] active on [a certain Big Online Portal's question and answer service], especially when it comes to explaining the importance of relationship rights, full marriage equality, and decriminalizing consanguinamory. Someone had this question...

Family Tree Concerns..?
My Grandfather recently passed away and my Grandmother told us all that her and my Grandfather were never married, they had always celebrated an anniversary (or so we thought,) but didn't understand while she waited till he died before telling us. After further research into my family tree I have discovered that my Grandmother married her Uncle (is this incest!?!), my Mother feels all weird because it feels like her life has been a lie and the only person she could have asked and got a proper answer was her Dad but now he's gone so we are both just looking for some advice or if anyone has been or is going through a similar situation...
This was my answer, which was chosen as the best answer (thankyouverymuch)...
= = = =
Here's what matters: Was your grandfather a good person? A good spouse to your Grandmother? A good parent? A good grandparent? THAT is what matters, not any genetic or legal relation to your grandmother. There's no lie about any of that. Your mother's life is no different now than it was before she knew that information. She's just allowing cultural prejudices to influence her reaction. Your grandparents had what is called a common-law marriage. As long as they were good to each other, that is what matters.

You didn't make it clear, but it appears you mean your grandfather was the brother of one of your grandmother's parents (he would still be an "uncle" to her if he had, at one time, been married to one of your grandmother's parents' sister without any biological relation to your grandmother). Assuming there was a genetic connection (though it is possible he had been adopted into the family, too), that is still no reason for alarm. This is much more common than people think. People are finding out about this through DNA testing and family records, although family records don't always reveal the truth. If you go back further, it is virtually guaranteed you'll find you have consanguineous ancestors.

You don't have to go too far back in anyone's family tree to find these kinds of things. I doubt there is a person out there whose ancestry has nothing like this.

In other words.... you and your family are as normal as everyone else.
= = =

Just about everyone has incestuous childbearing in their family tree. In some cases, someone was raped, which  of course is a horrible,  or there was cheating. In other cases, it was true love between people who were not cheating on anyone. If the law prevented them from legally marrying or from telling the truth, that is a problem, a terrible problem, of the law, and just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality. It is not something wrong with the lovers.

Saturday, February 15, 2014

Help for Friends and Family of Consanguinamorous Siblings

Our friend Gott has done great service and had given this blog permission to repost what was just posted on Tumblr. I recommend following that Tumblr blog. What is below is all Gott's work...

(Here is a PDF version of the full text)

This is for the benefit of friends or family of romantically involved siblings, who may have recently discovered their secret. Though I’ve used “incest” in the title, I won’t continue to use the terms “incest” or “incestuous,” I will use “consanguinamory” and “consanguineous” (pronounced “con-sang-gwin-am-or-ee” and “con-sang-gwin-ee-us). “Incest” is too loaded a word for intelligent discussion, and I only ever use it for sexual abuse. If I say “consanguinamory”, assume I am talking about consensual sex. (I’m going to assume that the couple is opposite-sex, but most of this also applies for same-sex couples.) Remember: there’s a difference between love and abuse.
This might be long, but bear with me. All of your concerns are about to be addressed. If you truly love them, you will have the patience to read this.


- INTRODUCTION

First, stop and take a breath. I know that this must be a lot to take in. I seriously doubt that you’ve ever sat down to consider the possibility of this happening. I don’t expect you to be calm, but I do expect you to care enough about their well-being to seriously consider what I’m about to say.

Did you discover them accidentally? If so, talk to them individually – with an open mind – and make sure that there was no coercion. Ignore the taboo nature of what you just found out. If you have no evidence of coercion or manipulation, then do not try to project abuse where there is none, and do not force them to internalize your own sense of what’s “taboo.” Why would you ever want to burden them with so much unnecessary guilt and shame? Talk to them together, and get the story from them, calmly. See how they act together. Remember to treat them with respect, especially if they’re already adults; it’s what you would want for yourself.

Did they come out to you on their own? Then there’s even less chance that there was any coercion involved. In fact, coming out to you is one of the bravest and most trusting gifts they could ever give you. Not only is their love extremely taboo, but even if they are adults, in most places on Earth they could be thrown in jail, possibly for the rest of their lives. You could get them thrown in jail. Every person they tell is a potential threat who could ruin their lives forever, getting them locked up for years and permanently placed on the sex-offender registry. And yet, despite all that, they told you. They could have lied – it wouldn’t have been easy, but they could have – but they told you. However much you thought they trusted and loved you, they just proved that their true trust and love is greater.



If they say that it’s consensual, and there’s no evidence it isn’t – especially if they came forward on their own – how can you still assume that no person could consent to it? How can you possibly disrespect their intelligence and agency so much? Have you ever had any other reason to doubt that they are of sound mind and soul? Then why should this one thing counteract years of personal experience? Did they hurt anyone? Of course not. If you think there must be something wrong, it’s because that’s the story society has been spoon-feeding you.

Consider: if one of them was adopted – if they weren’t genetically related – would you still feel as uncomfortable as you do? Because if you wouldn’t, then there’s no good reason for your discomfort now; socially, whether adopted or not, their relationship would be the same. If they weren’t even raised together, then in no way are they family, though they are blood relatives. Ignore for a moment the particular, taboo nature of their relationship. Just consider them as individual people. If your daughter/sister/friend was dating a man like her brother, knowing everything you do about him, would you be displeased, or happy? If your son/brother/friend were dating a woman like his sister, knowing everything you do about her, would you be upset, or glad?

If you are their parent, unless you’ve done an awful job of raising them, my guess is that, before you found out, you were quite proud of them. Well, they’re the same people now, the same people who made you proud. Wouldn’t you want your daughter to date a man who made you as proud as your son? Wouldn’t you want your son to date a woman who made you as proud as your daughter? Aren’t they more to you, and to each other, than just their genes?

- MENTAL HEALTH
 
Society has taught you to feel a certain way about consanguinamory. It was handed to you, and you accepted it without much thought. You’ve probably never met anyone who was openly sexually involved with a close family member. This has allowed you to go around without seriously considering what such a relationship might look like, how it could work, and how you should feel about it. It has allowed you to absorb the limited perspective put out by the media, giving you a narrow, stereotyped view of what’s possible. You have been listening to only one side of the story your whole life.

Just because you don’t know that you’ve met such a couple before, doesn’t mean that you haven’t met one. In fact, as you follow your family tree further and further back in time, the probability that you will find at least one consanguineous couple approaches 100%. Self-reported surveys have found that as much as 10% of college students have had consensual sexual contact with a sibling (mostly childhood experimentation). (If we extrapolate this to the whole population, this equates to about 30 million people in the U.S.) The fact that a couple is related tells you exactly nothing about what their relationship is like, nor whether it is consenting or not, nor whether it is fulfilling or not. Each of those things is independent of their blood relationship.

The cultural stereotype of such relationships is that they are dysfunctional, self-destructive, and abusive; anyone who willingly participates must somehow be mentally ill. Besides this view being incredibly condescending, it also has no meaningful basis. What is considered “healthy” and “unhealthy” changes, and is very subjective. On what standard are we to decide what constitutes mental “illness?” Is it that they’re doing something they know society disapproves of? I don’t think any reasonable person thinks we should use the preconceptions of the majority to decide what constitutes mental illness. It must, then, be that the behavior is self-destructive, or causes them to destroy the lives of others.

Do you see anything indicating that those things are happening? Aside from their experience of bigotry, do they seem unusually disturbed? Are they lashing out at themselves, at each other, or at you? Are they unable to operate normally in a social environment? If not, then you have no reason to think they are any less mentally healthy than before. In fact, their love may have made them healthier, by bringing them fulfillment and peace.
“From a scientific perspective, we do not know what constitutes normal childhood sexual behavior or feelings. […] Sexual behavior varies drastically among different groups of people due to their moral beliefs, values, social class, and culture. Sexual feelings and behaviors also vary widely among youth due to individual differences and variations in development. […] Some of the behaviors mentioned above are harmful. However, many are socially unacceptable because they would be classified as immoral or indecent by many people, not because they are harmful.
As I’ve said, you’ve probably already met a consanguineous couple. They couldn’t have stood out as any more dysfunctional than the average couple, or you would have become suspicious that something was wrong. Unfortunately, prejudice keeps people in the closet, which perpetuates ignorance, which itself perpetuates prejudice. You have been given the rare opportunity to examine your own assumptions, and break your own cycle of prejudice. Most people have never gotten that chance.

The “pedophile” label has long been used to brand sexual minorities as deviants, as threats to society and to our children. Homosexuality has long been heavily attacked as pedophilic, and in the past when people had limited experience with open, healthy same-sex relationships, they believed the propaganda. Now that so many homosexual couples are out in the open, we realize that there is a clear difference between the consenting majority, and the predatory minority.

Even today, opponents of legal rights for homosexuals try to brand the gay rights agenda as pro-pedophilia. There is a homophobic Neo-Nazi “vigilante” group in Russia called “Occupy Pedophilia,” but it isn’t pedophiles they’re targeting: they target young gay men. They go around torturing them, sometimes to death, and use “fighting pedophilia” as their implicit justification.
It is the same for consanguinamory. The vast majority of cases that come to light are the most unhealthy. (In the previously quoted summary of studies, only 30% of respondents answered that their reaction to sexual contact with a sibling was “negative.” Of that 30%, 25% were non-consensual. The remaining 5% may be due to stigma and shame.) Those in healthy, fulfilling relationships never come forward, and we only see them in the news when they are caught and thrown in jail.

The consanguinamorous are lumped in with a predatory minority, and because of the closet, the public buys it. Just because these siblings love each other, it doesn’t mean that they want to have sex with any other relatives, and it doesn’t mean that they are pedophiles. Despite the propaganda, their relationship does not automatically mean they are abusive and emotionally damaged.

Besides, so what if every other consanguineous relationship in history has been abusive and emotionally damaging? We consider people as individuals, and don’t punish them based on the sins of others. Even in murder trials, attenuating circumstances are considered. If murderers get the benefit of the doubt, if murderers get to be treated as individuals, then why not these siblings? Even if every other relationship like theirs was damaging, that doesn’t automatically mean theirs is. If they are the only loving, consenting blood-related couple in the world, then that’s all the more reason to treat them with respect and dignity.

- ABNORMALITY

However, they are not the only siblings to have a consenting, loving relationship. It is not some newfangled idea. Societies’ attitudes towards various sexual relationships – especially familial – have changed all throughout history. They are in illustrious company, among some of the greatest people to ever live. These are just a handful of the examples known, and there are certainly many more lost to history.
Not only are they in glorious past company, but in beautiful present company as well. In the past, only royals and aristocrats could break society’s rules and marry whom they wished. Why should the right to love whom they wish to love be denied to the common man or woman? Romantic sibling relationships are much more common than most realize. Many of these relationships, when allowed to flourish, grow into something astoundingly beautiful.

- FORCING THEM APART

You may wish that they would just find other people. There are plenty of non-blood-related fish in the sea. If they did that, it would certainly make things easier for you, wouldn’t it? You may even be able to convince yourself that it would somehow be easier for them, too. Well, why should they find other people?

Do you have someone you love? If so, why don’t you find someone else? It’s easy to see that it’s not so easy. If you knew a bisexual man who was dating another man, would you tell him that, because he has “more acceptable options,” that he must date a woman? The “homosexuality isn’t a choice” argument is strawmaning: it serves as a nice talking point, but that’s not ultimately why society now feels that homophobia is wrong. We’ve come to understand that love doesn’t always fit the conventions proscribed by society; that it is morally wrong to police people’s sex lives and love lives; that society is better off when we nurture people’s natural love. A bisexual person may be capable of loving someone of the opposite sex, but that doesn’t mean they will. No-one chooses who they fall in love with. It is no different for siblings in love.

Besides, have you stopped to consider the consequences of forcing them to break up? People think only of the consequences of letting siblings stay together, but not of destroying their relationship. Consider: how will breaking them up, causing them misery and pain, shaming them, and policing them make their relationship “healthy?” Even if you think it’s “unhealthy” now, their relationship is guaranteed to be much worse after that kind of trauma. They’ll remember what they had, they’ll remember the pain of its loss, they’ll remember the judgment, they’ll remember the shame, and they will probably know that they still love each other. What kind of family dinners do you expect with that kind of angst floating around? They may in fact choose to never see each other again, because it would be too painful.

What if they shun your judgment and shaming? Many consanguinamorous couples, when facing judgment and intervention by friends and family, break off all ties with them for the sake of preserving their own relationship with each other. If you really do care about them, and also want to be part of their lives, learn to at least tolerate their love. Better that you have a presence in their lives. Don’t force them to choose between family and friends, and the love of their lives.

- RELATIONSHIP INSTABILITY

Now, there is one legitimate concern regarding consanguinamory: won’t introducing sex and romance destabilize the family dynamic? What if it ultimately doesn’t work out? Won’t that make it difficult to go back to being just family for them? The short answer: not necessarily.

Now for the long answer. First of all, yes, it might, but many people pursue love at the risk of existing relationships, and we don’t begrudge them their pursuit of happiness, even if risky. No truly good things in life are gained without risk. As a culture, we even romanticize such risky pursuits of love. I would argue that, aside from the threat of social stigma breaking them apart, they are actually less likely to break up than other couples. Assuming they were raised together, they’ve already had decades to get to know each other, most of it probably non-sexually. Imagine if a man and woman lived together for sixteen or more years, without any sex at all, before they decided to be romantically involved. We would all consider that comically conservative, and yet that is the kind of experience these siblings have had.

Even when romances do end explosively, they can still go back to normal, given time and space. There are couples that have broken up very dramatically, but after having a couple years to themselves are able to go back to being friends. Even if these siblings do ultimately break up, given all of their prior experience as siblings, the common familial relationships, etc., they should be much more likely to eventually get back to being friendly than non-related couples. They would have more motivation to.

Remember too, not all romances end explosively. Some marriages end after over a decade, on amicable terms. If a relationship ends, the destructiveness of its end is related directly to the destructiveness of the relationship itself. What destroys a relationship in such a way? Lying, abuse, lack of communication, emotional unavailability, bad conflict resolution skills, lack of respect, lack of appreciation, etc.

Since you know the couple, you should have some idea whether they have problems with any of these things in their lives. If you are their parent, then you are in a unique position to ensure that they both treat each other with respect, empathy, and honesty. You have an interest in their relationship being healthy in the long term, and you also have the power to help that happen.

Don’t assume that their relationship as siblings and their relationship as lovers are mutually exclusive. It’s a common, false assumption that they must be, but the personal testimony of people in such relationships refutes it. I doubt they fell in love because they were bad siblings, but more likely it grew out of an especially close sibling relationship. We all acknowledge that people can serve multiple roles in a relationship, being both best friends and lovers. Well, so it is that they are best friends, lovers, and siblings. Each one of those relationships strengthens the others: their relationship becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

Even if familial and romantic love were mutually exclusive, who are you to decide which of those options is best for them? So they happened to be born as siblings. Why must that chain them the rest of their lives? Maybe they will be better as lovers than as siblings. As consenting adults, they get to decide which kind of relationship makes them happiest.

- HEALTH OF THEIR CHILDREN

Assuming you’re okay with all of the points I’ve just made, you may still have one objection: what if they have babies? This is one of the last refuges for those who can’t quite justify banning consanguinamory, but still want to. After all, what about all the stories of monster babies? Well, there are actually very few of those stories, they are an over-publicized minority, and that stereotype goes against actual scientific and historical evidence.

These siblings may already have a child. They may be pregnant. They may be planning on having a child in the future. You might have even found out about it because a pregnancy or genetic test of a child brought it to light. Once again, I must ask you to calm down, and listen carefully to what I’m about to say. The feelings you have are coming from a lot of cultural baggage and stereotyping, again. I won’t deny that the risks are higher than for the general population, but they’re not nearly as bad as you hear, and slightly elevated risks are never any reason to curtail a woman’s basic rights.

One hears an ingrained, “But it’s unnatural!” argument quite a bit. “Inbreeding” is not “unnatural,” as many would claim. Many species engage in consanguineous mating in some form or another, and it can have both positive and negative effects, depending on the circumstances. Sometimes, species even evolve a resistance to problems from “inbreeding.” In nature, as in society, things are always more complicated than a blanket judgment can capture.

If we should force people to only have babies with people that are distantly related from them, for eugenic reasons, then why stop at prohibiting consanguinamory? Why not forbid all sex between people of the same race? Genetic similarity within a population can still be great enough that genetic diseases are passed on – just look at Tay-Sachs. Of course the idea is ridiculous, but it just follows the logic of policing women’s uteri to minimize genetic disease.
“[…] [S]cientists have rejected the explanation that [the] incest taboo is a social mechanism that reduces the risk of congenital birth defects. One of the reasons is, findings have concluded that recessive or defect-carrying genes in a population may increase or decrease in instances of inbreeding. The frequency of birth defects depends on the availability and effectiveness of healthcare in a population. A recent genetic report also stated that children of unrelated parents have a 3% to 4% risk of having serious birth defects, while the offspring of first cousins have only a slightly higher risk of about 4% to 7%.”
We can extrapolate from this that for siblings, it is at least 7%, and probably no higher than 10%. This is lower than the risk of birth defects for women over the age of 35, which is 12.5%.
I have also written about how new scientific discoveries are illuminating why, over many generations, having children with blood-relatives can have an effect on a population. It’s not what most people think, it’s not as threatening as most people think, and more importantly, we may soon be able to fix it.

Whether considering the genome, or the epigenome, a single generation can be completely inconsequential. All of the risks are population-wide risks: the chances that a random sibling couple would have a child with defects are that high, but these two siblings are not a random couple. They are a specific couple, with individual genomes. Their family history of disease is specific to their family. Those things tell you much more about their chances than some randomized study. They may, in fact, have a lower probability of defects than the general population.

Either way, we do not, as a society, agree with eugenics, and for good reason. We do not espouse the views of racists who spent decades sterilizing the poor and black in the U.S. They’ll have to care for the child, it is her body, it is their risk to take. It doesn’t matter whether you approve of it on a “massive scale” (which wouldn’t happen without society forcing people), all that matters is whether it would be okay for this specific couple.

You’re probably also worried about how the child will deal with the taboo nature of its parents’ relationship. Isn’t it better that a child grow up in a normal family? This is the kind of reasoning that punishes all sexual minorities for the bigotry of the majority. Not only do they have to deal with the derision of the masses, but now they have to give up their own children because of that derision? No enlightened person in this day and age would argue that we should take the children of same-sex couples away from them and have them raised in “normal” families. It would be barbarous, and yet there are homophobic reactionaries who argue against same-sex adoption with a similar argument.

We should never let the bigotry of others police our families. A child can learn to deal with ostracism, as long as they have a good support network at home, but no child can learn to live without experiencing love. Isn’t it better that this child grows up in an “abnormal” household that loves them dearly, than a “normal” one that doesn’t?

- CONCLUSION

Here are refutations of many arguments people make against sibling consanguinamory. It’s a good addition to what I have just said. This quote from the article is especially apropos:
“There are siblings who are together right now, providing each other love, comfort, support, or their first sexual experience in a safe and reassuring environment. The biggest problem with sibling consanguinamory seems to be the prejudice and sex-negative attitudes of others. In most cases, trying to force consanguinamorous siblings apart only makes things worse. It can be a mutually beneficial way of bonding, expressing their love for each other, learning, and discovering their sexuality; it may even be a beautiful, lifelong romance. Let’s not let ignorance cause needless concern or repression.
Don’t be ashamed of changing your mind. Other people have had to walk the same intellectual and emotional journey. Don’t be ashamed that you were once wrong. Better to grow as a person than cling to terrible beliefs out of a misplaced sense of embarrassment and ego. Let yourself grow, for the sake of your child/sibling/friend. You may think you have nothing left to learn, but everyone can learn something, and everyone can teach something. This is their moment to teach you.
Here are some extra resources:

Wednesday, January 29, 2014

Zimbabwe Still Prosecuting Consenting Adults

From allafrica.com comes this report of the criminal prosecution of first cousins for the "crime" of loving each other.
Two cousins who were involved in an incestuous relationship which resulted in the birth of a girl and current pregnancy will perform 630 hours of community service. The two's fathers are brothers and traditionally are expected to treat each other as brother and sister. Ashley Feremenga (19) and her cousin Robson Feremenga (21) were living as husband and wife in Dzivaresekwa before neighbours alerted Ashley's father Jonasi.

I wonder what the love lives of those neighbors are like... if they have a love life in the first place. Must not be very fulfilling if they have time to rat people out for loving each other.

I'm sure their child is healthy. Otherwise, you can be sure this report would have noted any problems.
The duo was convicted after their own plea of guilt when they appeared before Harare magistrate Mr Aidonia Masawi who sentenced them to a 36 month-imprisonment term.
What a waste of the court.
Ashley's father Jonasi only came to know about their relationship after being advised by his neighbours.

He filed a police report leading to their arrest.
Rat. The lovers should keep his grandchildren away from him.

Fortunately, very few US states have ridiculous laws criminalizing consensual sex between first cousins. About half of US states will legally marry first cousins, and such marriages are common in many countries today, and have been very common throughout history. Prosecuting consenting adults for loving each other is outrageous.

Tuesday, January 28, 2014

Another Marriage Denied Equality

By my count, this is the thirtieth ongoing relationship I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are denied their fundamental right to marry.

Chelsea is a bright young woman, legally free to marry a complete stranger. But she can't legally marry the man she is living with as husband and wife.

Read the interview below and ask yourself if there is one good reason these two consenting adults should be denied their right to marry. THIS INTERVIEW DOES GET SOMEWHAT SEXUALLY EXPLICIT.


*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background.

Chelsea: I am a college graduate at a major Texas University and majored in Business Administration and currently reside just outside of Dallas, with my father. I currently work for him in a manufacturing plant in an adviser capacity. I am 26 years old and originally from Oklahoma. Most of my family ties and friends from school still reside there. I have some English, Irish and a bit of Spanish in my blood. I am about 5 feet 9 inches and weigh about 145 lbs last time I weighed myself.  I am a big-boned girl, so I will never be considered petite.  I love to eat, so it is always a battle to keep my weight down. I topped off at about 165 lbs periodically in my life, so far.  I have medium brown hair but sometimes have dyed it black.

I have one older brother.

My mom divorced dad when I was much younger and lives near Oklahoma City with her husband. I have sporadic contact with them.

I like bowling, hiking and volleyball. I also love to travel, usually on business trips with my dad. I love to sing, but will never make it as the next American Idol, but do belt out a few songs on karaoke night at local clubs.

Anonymous Dad: She is a lot to love and I love her a lot!  She is smart, witty but can't sing worth a lick, but then again I am no Frank Sinatra either.




FME: Are you married or have you ever been married?

Chelsea: I have never been married to an unrelated man. But I am 'married' to my father. Of course,  we could not have a nice, big church wedding with friends and family invited to attend nor have the big reception and the cutting of the cake and throwing out the garter and all of that. I have my regrets of not being fitted for a lavish wedding dress and having matching bridesmaids to accompany me. But dad and I had a little ceremony of our own with my brother in attendance and we exchanged our own special vows and my father bought me a ring. My father refuses to tell me exactly how much it cost him. I plan on wearing that ring until the day I die.

Father: Let's just say that I spent more on this ring then I did for her mother’s. And in a better, more tolerant world, I would have loved for her to have a wedding for the ages, one that will be forever memorable for her, and us. But she is still happy with how things turned out and her happiness is all that matters to me.


FME: How would you describe your sexual orientation and your relationship orientation... are you heterosexual, bisexual, what? Are you a monogamist, polygamist, or....?

Chelsea: I am mostly straight, but did experiment with a female on a couple of occasions in high school as well as in college. Mostly kissing and hugging but I did go down on my college roommate a couple of times and she on me. Dad knows about it but I never gave him a “show.” I think he would have liked that. I think most guys would. After mom divorced my father,  I was the only female left in the house so it was myself, dad and brother. Would I have sex with a woman again? I probably wouldn't shy away from the opportunity but for now am quite happy with being married to my father and plan on being with him for life.

Father: I am an advocate of lesbianism and give them my full support!  Would 'I' have sex with another woman again?  Not as long as I have my sexy daughter as my partner.   


FME: You currently live with… ?

Chelsea: My father. It is just the two of us in a nice house at the end of a quiet cul-de-sac.  There are two houses within 50 yards of our home and the neighbors think we are just a couple that is in a May-December relationship. They have no idea that we are father and daughter and for now, we have no plans on telling them.


FME: What kind of relationship did you have while you were growing up?

Chelsea: I was always daddy's little girl and some days, my father still treats me that way. He was my first crush when I was in middle school and my feelings have never wavered. He has always been there for me to dry away my tears, fix my boo boos on my scraped knees or cut fingers.

Mom seemed to be too busy with her hobbies, her own job and her circle of friends. Mom left dad just before I turned 13.

We all pulled together as a team, to make the household work. My father was a little despondent at first, because he never really intended to see his wife go. They had grown apart due to not being together that often.  Mom was always preoccupied with her own world of friends and was always out and about in her job as a bank officer for a major financial institution. Dad became Mr. Mom.

I was on the cusp of puberty and transforming from little girl to young woman. It was scary, exciting and confusing all at the same time for both me and dad. Sometimes I would come home from a bad day at school because of a fight with a girl over a boy or because I showed interest in a boy and he didn't return that interest. Dad would do all he could to comfort me and assure me that things will be alright and to not let things get me down. There is always another day, another tomorrow. I enjoyed those times with my father from the beginning.

Father: Chelsea would side with me for most arguments that I had with my wife. I could do no wrong, even though that wasn't really true. I am no angel; nobody is perfect. But I always tried to look at the practical side of things. I remember disciplining her.


FME: How did sexual affection become a part of your relationship?

Chelsea: His hugs and kisses were always reassuring.  I loved him so much. As I aged, those kisses became a little more intense. Not just a peck on the forehead or cheek, but a kiss on the lips started to become more of the open mouth variety until one day our tongues met. I never thought it would become a prelude to having sex with my father at the time, but later dad did admit that those early kisses did excite him greatly.

Father:  She was and is always an attractive daughter. Secretly, I DID long for her but fought the urges for the good of the family unit. After all, she had had to finish growing up without her mother there.

Chelsea: Some of the kissing was done in various stages of undress. Dad, my brother and I didn't always keep our doors closed, so we would have fleeting glimpses of our bodies. One night before bedtime, my brother peeked in on us. Dad was kissing me not just on the lips, but also on my neck and moved to my upper chest. Natural, human instincts were taking over and my father deftly opened my nightgown, exposing my breasts. I moved dad's head down to them and closed my eyes. Or breathing grew short and shallow. We had reached a threshold that had no point of return. He continued to touch and tongue my breasts and tt felt amazing. My dad was the first male to make love to my breasts.  In fact, dad was the first male I did anything and everything with sexually.  My brother was enjoying the show of course and pleaded with me later on to do it with him.

Father: It was quite an event, that first time. I was a little concerned that it would backfire, and that I would lose the trust of my daughter. I patiently waited for when I thought the time was right. I must admit I fought my own urges to seduce her because she was so young and vulnerable. She is my daughter, for goodness sake! A few months later, my son started to join in. He’s two years older than her and there was no reason to leave him out.


FME: How do you describe the lovemaking now?

Chelsea: Fantastic!  Dad and I pretty much do it all sexually. The sex with my father always seemed natural. Our sexual liaisons were a perfect fit.  No pun intended.  Dad, brother and I enjoyed each other sexually without any reservations. We all benefited.  I enjoyed orally servicing them, many times at the same time. They always returned the favor.

I went on the obligatory dates so that people wouldn't 'talk', because I had two, at home “boyfriends” in my father and brother. I sucked a c--- or two just to keep things quiet among the guys I did go out with but most of the oral sex, I performed on my dad and big brother.

We enjoyed kinky threesomes for quite a few years.  It has just recently ended with my older brother.  He found himself a nice lady and has moved several miles away due to his employment situation, so it is now just me and my father enjoying each other's company and bodies. To my dad and I, nothing is too kinky or off-limits. We have f---ed in just about every position there is. Dad is a big man. 6 foot 2 inches and about 240 lbs. He has been able to handle my sometimes 160 lbs with ease. As I mentioned earlier,  I am around 145 lbs right now but I don't think I can lose too much more. What I am getting at is when dad has intercourse with me, while he is standing up and holding me up in the air. It is crazy wild sex!  We have also tried bondage and other kinky activities and have performed role play.  A lot of times I will call him 'daddy' when we are having sex. A truer word has never been spoken!

Sometimes, we just have time for a little quickie in the morning before we leave for work.  I will suck my father off so as to get him in the right frame of mind and ease any tensions he may have for the upcoming work day. Besides, I certainly don't mind having my dad for “breakfast.”  During the week our schedules don't always permit full-fledged sexual activity. At night, we just go to bed, naked under the covers and kiss each other until we fall asleep. The weekends are a whole other story.  Saturdays, Sundays and Holidays are our best times.  Especially Sunday morning. Oftentimes dad and I won't get out of bed or the bathroom until noontime! We aren't really religious types, even though we are both Catholic. So we have missed quite a few Masses.  But we never miss on the opportunity to worship each other's bodies. 

Father: I can safely say, that my daughter is my Viagra.  She keeps me running young.  Sometimes she wears me out,  but it is the best kind of weary a man can experience and always leaves a smile on my face. We’ll view online porn and try things we see.


FME: Describe your relationship now.

Chelsea: We are man and wife in our eyes now.  We’ve long been a couple, but did have our brother joining us whenever he could. But he understood that dad is my husband and I am dad's wife.  He has been quite excited and supportive of the arrangement all this time. It is up to my brother whether or not he rejoins us. Dad and I will always accept him in our fold. If he returned today, we would welcome him and have at it like we used to.  I really liked having both dad and my brother in me or me servicing them at the same time and would do it again in a heartbeat.

There are still days where dad and I will argue a point as father and daughter, but for the most part, we behave just like any other normal married couple. The roles have gradually developed into dad just being the loving husband and me, the loving wife. But our blood relationship is always in the back of our minds.

We have no children - yet.  I am 26 years-old, so my biological clock still has quite a few ticks in it. I would love to get pregnant with my father's baby.  It would complete our incestuous coupling and seal us together, forever.  We have discussed it. We may try to have a child together, soon. My father and I are not overly concerned about the ramifications of our DNA being the same. We are certain that the baby would be healthy and don't buy into the hype that he or she would be defective physically or mentally.


FME: Does anyone in your life know the full, true nature/history of your relationship and how did they find out? What kind of steps, if any, have you had to take to keep your privacy?

Chelsea: Other than my brother, my best girlfriend from high school knows about us.  I have spoken with her over the telephone and we have shared emails over the years.  My mom suspects something is going on because of the few times I have talked to her by telephone she knows that I have not legally married nor has dad legally remarried. Of course, the longer our absence, the more people and relatives will speculate as to where dad and I have disappeared to. My paternal grandfather is aware. We did move a few hundred miles from our immediate neighborhood so as not to arouse suspicion or confrontation. We don't want to flaunt our incestuous union. In a more perfect world, incest could and would be accepted throughout the world! Out here in Texas, nobody knows that we are father and daughter, so we can go to a park and kiss and hug, or hold hands  or have our arms around each other or on our shoulders while shopping at a mall or being intimate at a nice quiet restaurant without fear of being recognized and discovered for who we are.

Father: I confessed to my father awhile back ago after much prodding. He has kept mum about it also and just told me to keep things under wraps. I assured him that I love [her] and would never do anything to hurt her or force her into doing anything against her will.  He is the one that suggested that the best thing for us to do is to move away from the immediate area so as to fend off the naysayers and protesters out there, including other family members like some of the conservative aunts and uncles that would most likely wish that we “burn in hell.”  Dad and I correspond by phone and email to keep abreast of other family developments however.


FME: Having to hide the full nature of your relationship from some people can be a disadvantage. Can you describe how that has been?

Chelsea: For that reason, family reunions are out of the question. That is really the only big “con” in the pros and cons of our incestuous relationship. We are missing out on milestones such as cousins, nephews and nieces birthdays as well as the occasional wedding. That is the biggest disadvantage. Other than that major element,  my father and I are quite happy with the love affair that has grown and blossomed.  It has been said that a girl looks for a mate that is a lot like her father. In my case, my mate is my father and I wouldn't want it any other way and neither does my dad.


FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your relationship, or disapprove of anyone having this kind of relationship? What's your reply to those who would say that this is one of you preying on the other and that you can’t truly consent?

Chelsea: Fortunately, my father and I have not had that confrontation as of this day. To them I would say, who are you to judge?  What about those who are married and get divorced, or how about those that abuse their spouses? Wife beaters,  even wife killers?   How about those who abuse or mistreat their children? Do they disapprove of that? My father and I are in a loving relationship that knows no limits. We have had our arguments, we have raised our voices over finances, clothes, maintenance on the car, leaving dirty dishes in the sink, etc. That is normal. But at no time has dad abused or taken advantage of me. I wanted this relationship from the beginning and so did dad. We have treated each other with dignity and respect and if and when we raise a family, we will bring our children up with unrestricted love and caring. Isn't that what life is all about?

Father: Everything with my daughter just fell into place. There was a natural progression to our sexual activity. I never took advantage of her, abused her, nor raped her. It was all a result of loving and gentle kindness. Nothing ever forced or coerced.  The word 'No' was as powerful then as it is now.


FME: Aside from the law, which I think is ridiculous, can you think of anything that would make relationships like this inherently wrong?

Chealsea: Yes, we are related, yes we of the same flesh and blood, but if we behave and live in a loving and cherished manner, what is so “inherently wrong” about that?  Besides, it is none of their business!  I would rather go to jail instead of separating myself from my father's strong arms and his warm embrace.


FME: If you could get legally married, and that included protections against discrimination, harassment, etc., would you?

Chelsea: As I mentioned before, I would absolutely love to become legally married to my father - my biological father. Yes world, my own biological father! I would be a blushing bride, but a proud one also - proud to be my father's legal wife and some day the mother of his children!

Father: If consensual incest were legal and totally accepted by society, instead of walking down the aisle with my daughter to give her up to another man,  I would be the proud groom,  waiting for someone to give her - to me - and ready to take my daughter's hand in marriage - to me.


FME: What advice do you have for someone who may be experiencing feelings for a father or daughter, or some other relative? What advice do you have for family members and friends who think or know that relatives they know are having these feelings for each other?

Chelsea: Explore those feelings. Drop hints here and there. Be subtle about it. Wait for the proper reaction. Display patience. Don't just go up to that relative and say “I want to jump your bones!” If, after some time, perhaps even a year or two, the feeling isn't reciprocated in any way, then it is time to move on. You don't want to miss a signal or a cue that is the exact opposite of what you hoped for. That could lead to an embarrassing situation that could be hard to extract yourself from. If the feelings of sexual attraction are mutual, by all means, be honest with each other. Set the ground rules as to what is expected and progress from there. Communications goes a long way

As for those who think or know of relatives that have a physical attraction to each other, as long as it is consensual and they are both of legal age, I say leave them be. Don't meddle in other people's affairs, be it they are relatives or not. Unless it directly affects you, stay out of it. The only time you should become involved is if you know someone is being mistreated or abused. Even then, that could be difficult.  


FME: What would you say to someone who doesn't believe you are for real?

Chelsea: They should read up on just how common and real incest is. Father/daughter, brother/sister, etc. It is more widespread than many of those doubters think and dates back to ancient times. Royal families used to engage in incestuous practices to keep the blood line pure. If they think that incest does not exist, then they are in denial, or living under a rock. Or they are fearful of the unknown, because incest is not part of their every day life. And incest will thrive and flourish as long as humans continue to roam the earth. As long as people interact together, depending on the functions or dysfunctions of the family structures, incest will be an alternative and/or a solution and remain prevalent in our society. 


FME: Have you met in-person or do you know anyone else who has experience with consanguineous sex or consanguinamory?

Chelsea: I have corresponded with a young woman that has had sexual trysts with her father.  They occurred when she was in college at the same school that I attended. She is now married and has a child with another man. I met her one time, when I was a Senior in college. It was a relief to unburden myself to someone that was not from my neighborhood, that had no family or friendly ties to my community. She opened up to me also. Alas, I haven't heard from her in a few months, but had been keeping in touch via email.

I haven't met in person another father/daughter couple but have encountered couples that look like they are dad and daughter, but don't know for sure. I see couples like this wherever I go; be it the shopping mall, supermarket, movie theater, restaurant and wonder to myself… Are they, could they?  Or am I the only one living as a “married” woman to my own father? I think not, but just haven't actually met with and sat down with a true, father and daughter that are in a similar arrangement as dad and I are. I hope to someday! I do have a limited few online contacts that I chat with or email on occasion that seem to be along the same lines as myself with children also.


FME: Any plans for the future?

Chelsea: Continuing to have sex with my father as long as we see fit, both mentally and physically.  Also, as mentioned earlier, try for a child and a family.  That would be wonderful! 

Father:  I just hope Chelsea still wants me when I am old and grey.

Chelsea: Of course I will daddy! I am your girl, always!


*****

There you have it. Consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone, but are denied their freedom to marry.

Why should they be denied their rights? There’s no good reason.We need to recognize that all adults should be free to be with any and all consenting adults as they mutually consent, and part of doing that is adopting relationship rights for all, including full marriage equality sooner rather than later. People are being hurt because of a denial of their basic human rights to love each other freely.

You can read other interviews I have done here.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this.

Thank you to Chelsea and her hubby for doing this interview!

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