We Get Letters

This blog is visited by people all over the planet, and welcomes comments and I also welcome your emails and private messages. Everyone once in a while I publish some of those messages in a blog entry, which is what I’m I’m doing here.

Our entry Frequently Asked Question: How Common is Incest? is consistently the most popular entry. An anonymous hater left this comment, which I didn’t publish…

My God people, you are so sick. I just need to go and vomit now.

Very rarely is a criticism of any substance left.

Helena left a comment after another FAQ response that answers why consanguineous sex is still illegal in many places.

i REALLY wish people would not use the term inbreeding , a child is born of love in a consensual consanguinious relationship and inbreeding makes me feel like the sow on a pig farm LOL

Most children born to close relatives are healthy and look like anyone else. Many of them are better-looking.

After the entry explaining why I prefer the term consanguineous, Anonymous wrote…

have to say here that the daughter born to my uncle and me is both beautiful and smart , shes funny , loves to paint and draw , read and dance and in NO way do I see her as " unable " to have a good life , shes happy and loved and a sweet kind person. So its not always a bad situation

Someone asked after this entry on how hate adds pain to GSA situations…

I got specific question for which I was unable to find an answer.

I met my half-sister, two months from now, she is fifteen, and I have never seen her before. We developed strong feeling for each other, and I was feeling wrong about it, before I found out about GSA and reverse imprinting. I do love her, but I just can't be with her, before she is 18 (meaning psychically an adult, i dont want her to become psychically unstable bacuse of teen relationships with her brother).

And my question about it is, does GSA disappear trough that time period, do I have a change to be with her in close relationship 3 years later from now? It may be rather silly question, but still it is the only one I need answer for... Thanks

This was my reply…

It is NOT a silly question. I know people who resisted their GSA attractions for a lot longer than 3 years, and still were strongly attracted to each other. When they finally got together in every sense of the word, they felt like kicking themselves for having resisted. But I do think it is wise to heed the age of consent laws.

It is possible that if you spend time together regularly without sexual affection and have sex lives with other people, that your feelings for each other will transition to minimize sexual attraction, but I can't guarantee that.

The bottom line is that it is a good idea to hold off for now.

BrotherHobo left a comment after this interview…

I am envious of sibling couples like Liz and Ryan who have successfully managed to create a life together. Far too many other brother/sister couples have been driven apart, either by the fear of being caught and punished, or just the likelihood of condemnation of friends and family. Even more still live a double life, perhaps even are married to others, and meet secretly for a few hours together. Gays and lesbians lived like this in the past, and are slowly gaining acceptance. Oddly enough, though, although they see their own sexual lives as "normal," the LGBT community often denigrate incestuous couples as "sick" and "perverted." I find that to be more than just a little ironic. It is rare to encounter a practicing incestuous couple with enough courage to come out. Mostly, they are living secret lives, either masquerading as a non-sanguineous married couple, or living the lie of dating outside their real relationship and pretending to the outside world to simply be brother and sister who are very close.

The fear of discovery and condemnation is so great that sibling couples who actually figured out ways to "date" one another in high school, who attended high-school proms and football games and church together as teenagers are often driven apart by other family members' suspicious questions, or even being caught together in compromising circumstances. That fear, while probably once based around parents or other siblings finding out about their relationship, morphs into fear of one's spouse, or one's children finding out, and over time the love takes a beating and begins to flicker. Some even declare the relationship to be "just a phase" or "just an ill-advised affair." Some separate deliberately, in the hopes of extinguishing that love. But it doesn't die easily, and can last a lifetime, even while separated by years and hundreds of miles.

Anonymous wrote after Successful GSA Relationships…

im currently struggling in GSA.. my nephew and i are in the same age. we grew up separately because my brother and his mom were separated.. since we were a kid, i knew i was attracted to him.. im happy when he is around but i dont talked to him much because im afraid he might notice that im attracted to him.. we were in highscool when he had his summer with us.. we were both grown ups, and there goes my feelings again.. i thought i would just ignore him again.. but he seems so interested talking to me.. he even got my number and we talked to each other as much as possible.. it was then when he admitted that he loves me and so i also admitted to him that i feel the same.. but im so afraid that my family might know about us so i stop talking to him which makes him sad and avoided me eventually. i decided to share it with my sister to seek advice.. but she didnt understands me and worst she told everyone in the family about that.. i was merely moved on.. i had a family of my own and have a child at my young age, but we separated in just few months and raise my child alone. i thought i would never ever fall for anyone again.. until he came back, my nephew.. my heart was filled with happiness when i saw him again.. he stayed for three weeks for vacation and we were un separable, we got every chances we had to show how much we mean to each other.. we were like a couple.. my family warned me so we did it discreetly.. and when he was about to leave he told me that he is living with a girl and it almost breaks me.. all our sweet memories were replaced by sadness.. and he felt bad about that.. but he wants me to go with him and he will leave his girl.. but i cant, i cant leave my one year old son.. and im afraid.. we might lose our family, and there is no turning back if we will do that.. but i cant bear the thought of him sleeping with a girl.. please help me i need advice, how can i make this relationship successful..

It is much easier for me to share advice when someone contacts me via email or private message, so we can have a dialogue.

Anonymous wrote after our most popular posting…

Consensual incest between siblings who were raised together as such is almost always a more dominant sibling coercing a passive one into sexual situations. I don't care how you try to rationalize it. It's wrong and it will mess the passive one up. The only time I've seen otherwise is when both siblings are being abused and/or molested and they bond together through the abuse and sometimes become sexually involved with each other. That doesn't turn out well either.

How does Anonymous “know” this? Perhaps based on people who have complained to therapists or law enforcement? But of course, most of the people who have neutral or positive experiences with consanguineous sex or consanguinamory (and there have been many) would never tell any sociologist or law enforcement.

Anonymous left a comment after An Aunt and Nephew Ponder Coming Out…

my soul mate is also related to me in a similar way. one of his parents is my half sibling but we didnt grow up together, we fell in love as adults. we were in relationships where we were not happy so we left them and now we are the happiest we've ever been. though we do not tell our families, they can only speculate... there is no way to tell people, they would never understand. but we

Anonymous wrote after Rights Aren’t Reserved For the Majority…

Lol as always when I feel in need of a some sanity I find right here on your website . As someone who is happy in a consanguinamorous relationship but who was forced to do therapy by my family I know that I personally just shut down and refused to talk about how I felt , all I wanted to do was get out that room and back into my uncles arms . Its like he says " the one person who has to be ok with who you are is you because at the end of the day there is no getting away from your self ." I am happy now we live as we want and can be open loving and real with each other .

Finally, I wanted to offer a “confidential” to Anynomous, who left a comment that I didn’t publish…

The people I interview choose what, if any, name to go by when I print their interviews. If they request it, I will include their contact information. If they use their real name or a name they’ve used elsewhere, or are completely anonymous, that is up to them. I did have one person provide an email address and nickname that this person soon requested I remove, and I did. Someone else provided an email address that has remained. I will never intentionally “out” someone without their consent, with the possible exception of someone who has publicly sought to deny relationship rights to other adults. If someone is taking a public stance against full marriage equality or relationship rights for any adults and is secretly in the closet themselves, they should be exposed.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,boundaries,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,family reaction,GSA,lack of equality harms,love,prejudice,reunion,siblings

We Get Letters

This blog is visited by people all over the planet, and welcomes comments and I also welcome your emails and private messages. Everyone once in a while I publish some of those messages in a blog entry, which is what I’m I’m doing here.

Our entry Frequently Asked Question: How Common is Incest? is consistently the most popular entry. An anonymous hater left this comment, which I didn’t publish…

My God people, you are so sick. I just need to go and vomit now.

Very rarely is a criticism of any substance left.

Helena left a comment after another FAQ response that answers why consanguineous sex is still illegal in many places.

i REALLY wish people would not use the term inbreeding , a child is born of love in a consensual consanguinious relationship and inbreeding makes me feel like the sow on a pig farm LOL

Most children born to close relatives are healthy and look like anyone else. Many of them are better-looking.

After the entry explaining why I prefer the term consanguineous, Anonymous wrote…

have to say here that the daughter born to my uncle and me is both beautiful and smart , shes funny , loves to paint and draw , read and dance and in NO way do I see her as " unable " to have a good life , shes happy and loved and a sweet kind person. So its not always a bad situation

Someone asked after this entry on how hate adds pain to GSA situations…

I got specific question for which I was unable to find an answer.

I met my half-sister, two months from now, she is fifteen, and I have never seen her before. We developed strong feeling for each other, and I was feeling wrong about it, before I found out about GSA and reverse imprinting. I do love her, but I just can't be with her, before she is 18 (meaning psychically an adult, i dont want her to become psychically unstable bacuse of teen relationships with her brother).

And my question about it is, does GSA disappear trough that time period, do I have a change to be with her in close relationship 3 years later from now? It may be rather silly question, but still it is the only one I need answer for... Thanks

This was my reply…

It is NOT a silly question. I know people who resisted their GSA attractions for a lot longer than 3 years, and still were strongly attracted to each other. When they finally got together in every sense of the word, they felt like kicking themselves for having resisted. But I do think it is wise to heed the age of consent laws.

It is possible that if you spend time together regularly without sexual affection and have sex lives with other people, that your feelings for each other will transition to minimize sexual attraction, but I can't guarantee that.

The bottom line is that it is a good idea to hold off for now.

BrotherHobo left a comment after this interview…

I am envious of sibling couples like Liz and Ryan who have successfully managed to create a life together. Far too many other brother/sister couples have been driven apart, either by the fear of being caught and punished, or just the likelihood of condemnation of friends and family. Even more still live a double life, perhaps even are married to others, and meet secretly for a few hours together. Gays and lesbians lived like this in the past, and are slowly gaining acceptance. Oddly enough, though, although they see their own sexual lives as "normal," the LGBT community often denigrate incestuous couples as "sick" and "perverted." I find that to be more than just a little ironic. It is rare to encounter a practicing incestuous couple with enough courage to come out. Mostly, they are living secret lives, either masquerading as a non-sanguineous married couple, or living the lie of dating outside their real relationship and pretending to the outside world to simply be brother and sister who are very close.

The fear of discovery and condemnation is so great that sibling couples who actually figured out ways to "date" one another in high school, who attended high-school proms and football games and church together as teenagers are often driven apart by other family members' suspicious questions, or even being caught together in compromising circumstances. That fear, while probably once based around parents or other siblings finding out about their relationship, morphs into fear of one's spouse, or one's children finding out, and over time the love takes a beating and begins to flicker. Some even declare the relationship to be "just a phase" or "just an ill-advised affair." Some separate deliberately, in the hopes of extinguishing that love. But it doesn't die easily, and can last a lifetime, even while separated by years and hundreds of miles.

Anonymous wrote after Successful GSA Relationships…

im currently struggling in GSA.. my nephew and i are in the same age. we grew up separately because my brother and his mom were separated.. since we were a kid, i knew i was attracted to him.. im happy when he is around but i dont talked to him much because im afraid he might notice that im attracted to him.. we were in highscool when he had his summer with us.. we were both grown ups, and there goes my feelings again.. i thought i would just ignore him again.. but he seems so interested talking to me.. he even got my number and we talked to each other as much as possible.. it was then when he admitted that he loves me and so i also admitted to him that i feel the same.. but im so afraid that my family might know about us so i stop talking to him which makes him sad and avoided me eventually. i decided to share it with my sister to seek advice.. but she didnt understands me and worst she told everyone in the family about that.. i was merely moved on.. i had a family of my own and have a child at my young age, but we separated in just few months and raise my child alone. i thought i would never ever fall for anyone again.. until he came back, my nephew.. my heart was filled with happiness when i saw him again.. he stayed for three weeks for vacation and we were un separable, we got every chances we had to show how much we mean to each other.. we were like a couple.. my family warned me so we did it discreetly.. and when he was about to leave he told me that he is living with a girl and it almost breaks me.. all our sweet memories were replaced by sadness.. and he felt bad about that.. but he wants me to go with him and he will leave his girl.. but i cant, i cant leave my one year old son.. and im afraid.. we might lose our family, and there is no turning back if we will do that.. but i cant bear the thought of him sleeping with a girl.. please help me i need advice, how can i make this relationship successful..

It is much easier for me to share advice when someone contacts me via email or private message, so we can have a dialogue.

Anonymous wrote after our most popular posting…

Consensual incest between siblings who were raised together as such is almost always a more dominant sibling coercing a passive one into sexual situations. I don't care how you try to rationalize it. It's wrong and it will mess the passive one up. The only time I've seen otherwise is when both siblings are being abused and/or molested and they bond together through the abuse and sometimes become sexually involved with each other. That doesn't turn out well either.

How does Anonymous “know” this? Perhaps based on people who have complained to therapists or law enforcement? But of course, most of the people who have neutral or positive experiences with consanguineous sex or consanguinamory (and there have been many) would never tell any sociologist or law enforcement.

Anonymous left a comment after An Aunt and Nephew Ponder Coming Out…

my soul mate is also related to me in a similar way. one of his parents is my half sibling but we didnt grow up together, we fell in love as adults. we were in relationships where we were not happy so we left them and now we are the happiest we've ever been. though we do not tell our families, they can only speculate... there is no way to tell people, they would never understand. but we

Anonymous wrote after Rights Aren’t Reserved For the Majority…

Lol as always when I feel in need of a some sanity I find right here on your website . As someone who is happy in a consanguinamorous relationship but who was forced to do therapy by my family I know that I personally just shut down and refused to talk about how I felt , all I wanted to do was get out that room and back into my uncles arms . Its like he says " the one person who has to be ok with who you are is you because at the end of the day there is no getting away from your self ." I am happy now we live as we want and can be open loving and real with each other .

Finally, I wanted to offer a “confidential” to Anynomous, who left a comment that I didn’t publish…

The people I interview choose what, if any, name to go by when I print their interviews. If they request it, I will include their contact information. If they use their real name or a name they’ve used elsewhere, or are completely anonymous, that is up to them. I did have one person provide an email address and nickname that this person soon requested I remove, and I did. Someone else provided an email address that has remained. I will never intentionally “out” someone without their consent, with the possible exception of someone who has publicly sought to deny relationship rights to other adults. If someone is taking a public stance against full marriage equality or relationship rights for any adults and is secretly in the closet themselves, they should be exposed.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,boundaries,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,family reaction,GSA,lack of equality harms,love,prejudice,reunion,siblings

The Royal We

A discussion is still underway at theroyalforums.com about "Incestuous Royal Marriages." This blog has noted such things before.
Kataryn started off the discussion YEARS ago...

Legally Catherine of Aragon was married incestually because she as widow of one brother married the other after the first hausband's death.

That's not considered incest in most definitions.

But that's just a formality. History has shown that Royal families did not hesitate to form very close bonds between them. While a marriage of cousin and cousin happened quite often, marriages between unles and nieces are rare - but they happened, too.

One example is the marriage of Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg to Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Marie's mother Antoinette of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld was the sister of the groom.

Then there are the three uncle-niece marriages of the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs:

- Philipp II. married Anna of Austria, the daughter of his sister Marie.

- Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich married Maria Anna of Bavaria, daughter of his sister Anna of Austria.

- Philipp IV. married Marianna of Austria, daughter of his sister Maria Anna.

As you can see, the last three uncle-niece-marriages happened in the House of Habsburg between 1550 and 1660 in the direct line leading to Philipp IV. of Spain and his wife Marianna of Austria. Their child is the sad, sick Don Carlos of Schillerian fame...

Not 100 years later, the House of Habsburg ended in the male line. But of course the marriage of Maria Theresia of Austria to Francis Stephan of Lorraine brought new blood into the family..

As I understand it, uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some places in deference to religious traditions.



Princess Agnes added...

In Portugal there are two cases of marriages to uncles, regarding the only female monarchs.

D. Maria I (1734-1816) married her uncle, Pedro de Bragança (1717-1786) who became D. Pedro III, in 1760.

Her greatgranddaughter, D. Maria II (1819-1853) married her uncle D. Miguel (1802-1866) by proxy in 1826. This marriage was annulled in 1834. This annullment had nothing to do with the close relationship between the spouses (there had been a papal dispensation) but because it had been contracted in an attempt to end the liberal civil wars. D. Miguel didn't fulfill his part of the agreement (he was on the absolutist side) and the marriage ended being annulled. D. Maria II later married Auguste of Beauharnais in 1834 by proxy and personnally in January 1835, although he died in March that year.

She finally married Fernando de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1816-1885) in 1836. After the birth of their first son, he became D. Fernando II.

MAfan added more about Spain...

In the Spanish Royal Family it appears that such marriages were a sort of habit:

- in 1779 Infanta Maria Amalia (Carlos IV's daughter) married her paternal uncle Infante Antonio;
- in 1816 King Fernando VII married his niece Infanta Isabel of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1829 again King Fernando VII married his niece Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Maria Isabel);
- in 1816 Infante Carlos married to his niece Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1838 Infante Carlos married to his niece and sister-in-law Infanta Teresa of Portugal (another daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina, and sister of the above mentioned Isabel and Maria Francisca);
- in 1819 Infante Francisco de Paula (brother of Fernando VII) married to his niece Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Isabel, and sister of the above mentioned Maria Cristina; later Francisco de Paula and Luisa's son, Francisco de Asis, married to Fernando and Maria Cristina's daughter, Queen Isabel II).

Several other descendants of these couples married among themselves.

Alison20 was confused...

It has always seemed very strange to me that no-one in the Spanish RF realised a very basic biological fact, which was that marrying close relatives was not a healthy practice. This was somethat that was understood by even the most isolated and 'primitive' human societies - who made it 'taboo' for a woman to marry a man from her own family group. Perhaps they were so blinded by their belief in their superiority that they didn't think this basic fact applied to them! :-)

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. Not all societies have had a taboo preventing consanguineous marriages. The ones who did were likely more concerned about trading their daughters away as bargaining chips. In other words, the prohibitions were for the same reason the royal families would engage in consanguineous marriages: power. Either gaining it or retaining it.

Grandduchess24 contributed some information about the Norwegian royals...

Queen maud of Norway married her maternal cousin, haakon VII since they are both grandchildren of King Christian IX of Denmark

Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine married her maternal cousin prince Heinrich of Prussia and had 3 sons, is that right?

Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg and Gotha had married firstly her cousin grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse and had a daughter by him but died young, she secondly married her maternal cousin grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich and had two girls and one boy.

King carol II of Romania married his cousin Helen

Marc23 added about the Portugal royals...

And her son Pedro,"product" of uncle and niece was married to his own aunt Maria Francisca who was a sister to his mother and the other niece of his father,who was at the same time his grandfathers younger brother!

pacomartin gave quite a list...

Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts
King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria and Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.
 
Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

theresa_225 offered...

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).

Noble Consort Ming...

I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).

Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

Meraude...

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

norenxaq noted...

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

Keeping it in the caste?

The royals in Egypt, Hawaii, and elsewhere are also mentioned.

Literally all over the world, it has been common for close relatives to marry. In the US, there is a ridiculous stereotype that assigns such marriages or sexual relationships to rural southerners. But the fact is, wealthy people urban residents, and people of any socioeconomic background experience consanguinamory.

It is ridiculous that any US state has restrictions on the consanguineous freedom to marry, let alone laws criminalizing sex between first cousins. This is just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality nationwide. Adults in love who want to marry shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out of they can marry where they live, or if it would be criminal for them to live together if they want to move to another state.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,cousins,Europe,incest,India,siblings,Spain,UK,uncle-niece

The Royal We

A discussion is still underway at theroyalforums.com about "Incestuous Royal Marriages." This blog has noted such things before.
Kataryn started off the discussion YEARS ago...

Legally Catherine of Aragon was married incestually because she as widow of one brother married the other after the first hausband's death.

That's not considered incest in most definitions.

But that's just a formality. History has shown that Royal families did not hesitate to form very close bonds between them. While a marriage of cousin and cousin happened quite often, marriages between unles and nieces are rare - but they happened, too.

One example is the marriage of Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg to Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Marie's mother Antoinette of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld was the sister of the groom.

Then there are the three uncle-niece marriages of the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs:

- Philipp II. married Anna of Austria, the daughter of his sister Marie.

- Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich married Maria Anna of Bavaria, daughter of his sister Anna of Austria.

- Philipp IV. married Marianna of Austria, daughter of his sister Maria Anna.

As you can see, the last three uncle-niece-marriages happened in the House of Habsburg between 1550 and 1660 in the direct line leading to Philipp IV. of Spain and his wife Marianna of Austria. Their child is the sad, sick Don Carlos of Schillerian fame...

Not 100 years later, the House of Habsburg ended in the male line. But of course the marriage of Maria Theresia of Austria to Francis Stephan of Lorraine brought new blood into the family..

As I understand it, uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some places in deference to religious traditions.



Princess Agnes added...

In Portugal there are two cases of marriages to uncles, regarding the only female monarchs.

D. Maria I (1734-1816) married her uncle, Pedro de Bragança (1717-1786) who became D. Pedro III, in 1760.

Her greatgranddaughter, D. Maria II (1819-1853) married her uncle D. Miguel (1802-1866) by proxy in 1826. This marriage was annulled in 1834. This annullment had nothing to do with the close relationship between the spouses (there had been a papal dispensation) but because it had been contracted in an attempt to end the liberal civil wars. D. Miguel didn't fulfill his part of the agreement (he was on the absolutist side) and the marriage ended being annulled. D. Maria II later married Auguste of Beauharnais in 1834 by proxy and personnally in January 1835, although he died in March that year.

She finally married Fernando de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1816-1885) in 1836. After the birth of their first son, he became D. Fernando II.

MAfan added more about Spain...

In the Spanish Royal Family it appears that such marriages were a sort of habit:

- in 1779 Infanta Maria Amalia (Carlos IV's daughter) married her paternal uncle Infante Antonio;
- in 1816 King Fernando VII married his niece Infanta Isabel of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1829 again King Fernando VII married his niece Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Maria Isabel);
- in 1816 Infante Carlos married to his niece Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1838 Infante Carlos married to his niece and sister-in-law Infanta Teresa of Portugal (another daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina, and sister of the above mentioned Isabel and Maria Francisca);
- in 1819 Infante Francisco de Paula (brother of Fernando VII) married to his niece Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Isabel, and sister of the above mentioned Maria Cristina; later Francisco de Paula and Luisa's son, Francisco de Asis, married to Fernando and Maria Cristina's daughter, Queen Isabel II).

Several other descendants of these couples married among themselves.

Alison20 was confused...

It has always seemed very strange to me that no-one in the Spanish RF realised a very basic biological fact, which was that marrying close relatives was not a healthy practice. This was somethat that was understood by even the most isolated and 'primitive' human societies - who made it 'taboo' for a woman to marry a man from her own family group. Perhaps they were so blinded by their belief in their superiority that they didn't think this basic fact applied to them! :-)

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. Not all societies have had a taboo preventing consanguineous marriages. The ones who did were likely more concerned about trading their daughters away as bargaining chips. In other words, the prohibitions were for the same reason the royal families would engage in consanguineous marriages: power. Either gaining it or retaining it.

Grandduchess24 contributed some information about the Norwegian royals...

Queen maud of Norway married her maternal cousin, haakon VII since they are both grandchildren of King Christian IX of Denmark

Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine married her maternal cousin prince Heinrich of Prussia and had 3 sons, is that right?

Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg and Gotha had married firstly her cousin grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse and had a daughter by him but died young, she secondly married her maternal cousin grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich and had two girls and one boy.

King carol II of Romania married his cousin Helen

Marc23 added about the Portugal royals...

And her son Pedro,"product" of uncle and niece was married to his own aunt Maria Francisca who was a sister to his mother and the other niece of his father,who was at the same time his grandfathers younger brother!

pacomartin gave quite a list...

Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts
King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria and Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.
 
Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

theresa_225 offered...

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).

Noble Consort Ming...

I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).

Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

Meraude...

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

norenxaq noted...

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

Keeping it in the caste?

The royals in Egypt, Hawaii, and elsewhere are also mentioned.

Literally all over the world, it has been common for close relatives to marry. In the US, there is a ridiculous stereotype that assigns such marriages or sexual relationships to rural southerners. But the fact is, wealthy people urban residents, and people of any socioeconomic background experience consanguinamory.

It is ridiculous that any US state has restrictions on the consanguineous freedom to marry, let alone laws criminalizing sex between first cousins. This is just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality nationwide. Adults in love who want to marry shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out of they can marry where they live, or if it would be criminal for them to live together if they want to move to another state.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,cousins,Europe,incest,India,siblings,Spain,UK,uncle-niece

We Get Letters

Here's a comment left the other day on a posting from years ago about an aunt-nephew couple who were considering coming out.

I know what you are going through. I have being in love with my nephew since I can remember. I am 39 years of age and he is 41. His dad and I are half brother and sister same dad different mom.
 
When we were teens my parents sent me to spent the summer at his house. That summer we fell in love. But we continue with our separate lives I got married so did he. Over the years we kept in contact and saw each other when ever we could. He is my best friend my soulmate. We are still very much in love but we decided to never say or tell our families. They would never understand our bond.

Wouldn't it have been better for everyone involved if these two were allowed to be together, and if they wanted, to marry? Assuming the people who became their spouses were not informed, it isn't fair to those people just like it isn't fair to the lovers. Adults should be free to love each other, and not be pressured into hiding their love, staying the closet, and taking on beards.

In addition to the comments left on this blog, I get email, too, from people all over the world who are looking for help because of discriminatory laws and prejudices held by their own families. It is heartbreaking that anyone should have to hide because they are adults who love each other.

This is why we need relationship rights, including full marriage equality, for all adults.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,lack of equality harms,love,prejudice

We Get Letters

Here's a comment left the other day on a posting from years ago about an aunt-nephew couple who were considering coming out.

I know what you are going through. I have being in love with my nephew since I can remember. I am 39 years of age and he is 41. His dad and I are half brother and sister same dad different mom.
 
When we were teens my parents sent me to spent the summer at his house. That summer we fell in love. But we continue with our separate lives I got married so did he. Over the years we kept in contact and saw each other when ever we could. He is my best friend my soulmate. We are still very much in love but we decided to never say or tell our families. They would never understand our bond.

Wouldn't it have been better for everyone involved if these two were allowed to be together, and if they wanted, to marry? Assuming the people who became their spouses were not informed, it isn't fair to those people just like it isn't fair to the lovers. Adults should be free to love each other, and not be pressured into hiding their love, staying the closet, and taking on beards.

In addition to the comments left on this blog, I get email, too, from people all over the world who are looking for help because of discriminatory laws and prejudices held by their own families. It is heartbreaking that anyone should have to hide because they are adults who love each other.

This is why we need relationship rights, including full marriage equality, for all adults.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,lack of equality harms,love,prejudice

When Incest is a Consensual, Positive Experience

There are people who would have everyone believe that there are no happy consanguinamorous relationships. That romance or eroticism with a close biological relative can only be a bad experience. Over at PFI [a site that doesn't exist anymore... go to Kindred Spirits for an existing place to talk], one discussion participant asked a question and answered it first…

If you could go back in time to where it all started and have the knowledge you do now about what lay ahead of you in this thing called incest, would you still go through with it ??

i've thought about it many times, and the answer i come up is yes i would, sure there are many tears and hard times you go through, but for me the good has always outweighed the bad, life is what you make of it, and we've made a very good life for ourselves....

The first response…

In spite of all the difficulties, I'd do it all the same way. This kind of love is so much deeper and comfortable and intense than anything I've experienced with other people. It's just that worth it, in my opinion.

The second response…

If I could go back in time, knowing what I now know, I would have gladly lost my virginity to uncle. We had the opportunity when I was 16 and I bottled it and I do regret that. I feel I have wasted too many years worrying about possible consequences and I'm kicking myself! I'm just enjoying making up for lost time with my darling. We can't meet up very often so every second is precious with him but we email every day and telephone every week. He truly makes my heart leap for joy.

The third response…

If I could go back to that time, knowing what I know now, I would not have been so concerned about the rest of the world. Not so worried about what they would think or say or do. I would have more trust in my love and my own feelings. We wasted so many years of our life, stuck, not being together and longing for each other. We were not following our hearts. Now, being without her would be the most horrible form of hell I can imagine.

The fourth response came from the third respondent’s partner…

Awww... I feel the same way. I wish I could go back to that moment knowing what I know now... I would be in your arms in a heartbeat you are my soulmate and I love you...

The fifth response…

Yep!

Another…

It's not always fun and games,but I've never regretted it.We've had a lot of good times together and I look forward to many,many more special memories.It's great to be with someone who I can experience that deep emotional connection with.I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Not one of the responses I saw expressed regret at having gotten involved in consanguinamory.

If you haven't done so already, be sure to read the interviews I have conducted here.

Every sexual or romantic relationship carries the risk of heartache. Consenting adults should not also be forced to endure prosecution nor persecution. They should he allowed their happiness. And if they do break up, they should be comforted, rather than lectured.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,father-daughter,love,mother-son,sister-sister,uncle-niece

When Incest is a Consensual, Positive Experience

There are people who would have everyone believe that there are no happy consanguinamorous relationships. That romance or eroticism with a close biological relative can only be a bad experience. Over at PFI [a site that doesn't exist anymore... go to Kindred Spirits for an existing place to talk], one discussion participant asked a question and answered it first…

If you could go back in time to where it all started and have the knowledge you do now about what lay ahead of you in this thing called incest, would you still go through with it ??

i've thought about it many times, and the answer i come up is yes i would, sure there are many tears and hard times you go through, but for me the good has always outweighed the bad, life is what you make of it, and we've made a very good life for ourselves....

The first response…

In spite of all the difficulties, I'd do it all the same way. This kind of love is so much deeper and comfortable and intense than anything I've experienced with other people. It's just that worth it, in my opinion.

The second response…

If I could go back in time, knowing what I now know, I would have gladly lost my virginity to uncle. We had the opportunity when I was 16 and I bottled it and I do regret that. I feel I have wasted too many years worrying about possible consequences and I'm kicking myself! I'm just enjoying making up for lost time with my darling. We can't meet up very often so every second is precious with him but we email every day and telephone every week. He truly makes my heart leap for joy.

The third response…

If I could go back to that time, knowing what I know now, I would not have been so concerned about the rest of the world. Not so worried about what they would think or say or do. I would have more trust in my love and my own feelings. We wasted so many years of our life, stuck, not being together and longing for each other. We were not following our hearts. Now, being without her would be the most horrible form of hell I can imagine.

The fourth response came from the third respondent’s partner…

Awww... I feel the same way. I wish I could go back to that moment knowing what I know now... I would be in your arms in a heartbeat you are my soulmate and I love you...

The fifth response…

Yep!

Another…

It's not always fun and games,but I've never regretted it.We've had a lot of good times together and I look forward to many,many more special memories.It's great to be with someone who I can experience that deep emotional connection with.I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Not one of the responses I saw expressed regret at having gotten involved in consanguinamory.

If you haven't done so already, be sure to read the interviews I have conducted here.

Every sexual or romantic relationship carries the risk of heartache. Consenting adults should not also be forced to endure prosecution nor persecution. They should he allowed their happiness. And if they do break up, they should be comforted, rather than lectured.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,father-daughter,love,mother-son,sister-sister,uncle-niece

Indiana Still Arresting Adults For Consensual Sex With Each Other

From wbiw.com comes this news from Bloomington, Indiana...

An aunt-nephew pair faces preliminary incest charges after being discovered in a pickup truck in a semi-state of undress Wednesday morning.

While on patrol, a Bloomington police officer came across 20-year-old Jesse Pedro, and 36-year-old Anniabell Scherill, sitting in a black GMC Sierra at about 2:20 a.m. in a parking lot on the west side of Cascades Park in Bloomington.

They are both adults. Why should they be arrested for having sex with each other? Who is the victim?

Kovach says, after questioning both admitted to having consensual sexual intercourse with one another.

That should be none of a police officer's business. DON'T TELL! Do not assist with an unjust prosecution.

She told the officer her and Pedro had been at their respective places of work prior to the incident and that she was undergoing marital issues at the time.

There is a chance, however remote, that her spouse knew and approved. But even if she was actually cheating, that shouldn't make it a criminal matter. This is a waste of law enforcement resources.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,consanguineous,incest,Indiana,lack of equality harms,law,prosecution