Guilty Pleas in Absurd Prosecution of Consenting Adults

Frank Humphreys and Eleanor Jackson

To update a case we last reported here, Duncan Bick reports at newsandstar.co.uk that law enforcement official in Cumbria, England have gone ahead with their ridiculous and unjust prosecution of consenting adults for having sex with each other in private. Outrageous.

Frank Humphreys, 51, and 23-year-old Eleanor Jackson both pleaded guilty to a charge of “having sex with an adult relative” during a brief appearance at Carlisle Crown Court.

The pair, of Princess Street, Cleator, appeared at the same court last year and denied the charge but they changed their pleas yesterday.

There's no victim! Why is this a crime?

They spoke only to confirm their names and enter their pleas in front of Judge Peter Hughes QC.

They had sex between December 2011 and February 2012.

So they had sex. And what terrible thing happened as a result??? Judge Peter Hughes QC should've thrown this case out! They will be sentenced in April. Absurd.

THIS is exactly why we need rights for all consenting adults, all over the planet. They should not only be free to be together and love each other as they see best, but marry if that is what they'd like. Instead law enforcement resources are wasted in prosecuting them.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,courts,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prejudice,prosecution,UK

Polyandry as a Theme in a Plymouth, England Theatre

Martin Freeman reports at plymouthherald.co.uk about a woman and her play... 

“In parts of northern India there are 300 women to 1,000 men,” says Sharmila [Chauhan]. “Polyandry is not normal but it is becoming more common.”

The latest new drama to come to the Drum, Theatre Royal Plymouth, might sound heavy stuff but is not all darkness.

“There are lighter moments. It is turned on its head.

“It looks at the relation between the husbands. There is a feeling of brotherhood and tenderness.

“It is intense but there are moments that are surprisingly funny.”

Sounds like it would  be interesting.

She says, though, that polyandry and matriarchal societies are not as rare as many believe, especially if you travel in history or in time. “I went to Kerala (southern India), to see the way of life of the Nair people who used to be matriarchal. I have done lots of research about polyandrous communities across the world in Africa, parts of the Far east and south Asia.

It is happening in polyamorous homes all over the world.

The Husbands is at the Drum, Theatre Royal Plymouth, from Wednesday to Saturday, February 12-15.

If you see it, let us know what you thought!

Read more »

Posted in: polyandry,polygamy,UK

Northern Ireland Legalizes Gay Adoption

At least there's some good news this week. Via BBC News:

A ban on gay and unmarried couples applying to adopt children in Northern Ireland has been removed. They may now apply in the same way as heterosexual couples. Health Minister Edwin Poots had tried to challenge an appeal court decision to extend adoption rights to gay couples. However, the Supreme Court said the Department of Health's argument for appeal did not meet the criteria. Previously, a single gay or lesbian person could adopt children in Northern Ireland, but a couple in a civil partnership could not. In June, the Court of Appeal ruled that the ban based on relationship status was held to discriminate against those in civil partnerships and to breach their human rights. Northern Ireland was the only part of the United Kingdom where that policy existed. Now, the law in Northern Ireland is in line with the rest of the UK.

RELATED: In October, Northern Ireland's Equality Commission endorsed same-sex marriage and demanded that the issue be put forward in the legislature. The Democratic Unionist Party has so far blocked any attempts.

Read more »

Posted in: gay adoption,Northern Ireland,UK

Scotland Still Prosecuting Consenting Adults For Loving Each Other

From this report at stv.tv, it appears as though Scotland is still prosecuting adults for consensual sex. What century is this again?

 

A man is to stand trial accused of having sex with his half-sister.

Doesn't that sound ridiculous? What a waste of resources. Every bit of money and time put into prosecuting this case could have been spent prosecuting abusers.

John Bowes is alleged to have committed an act of incest by sleeping with half-sister Sheila Drummond Bowes at a property in Dundee's Douglas area in summer 2011.

I don't think sleeping is the issue here.

Bowes is alleged to have "had sexual intercourse with a person related to him" between July 26, 2011 and August 4, 2011 at a flat in the city's Ballater Place.

The 48-year-old, of Balunie Crescent, Dundee, denies a charge of incest at the city's sheriff court. A trial date has been set for February and Bowes was released on bail until then.

He's 48. Her age isn't given, but it is likely that she is well into adulthood as well. Why is this a crime? It shouldn't be. And if this was consensual sex, is she being charged, too?  If this wasn't consensual, the report is written very poorly and the charges should be rape. If this was consensual, it shouldn't be a criminal matter at all. They should be free to have sex with each other and marry each other, if that is what they want.

Too many questions aren't answered. I do wonder who reported this to the authorities, whether or not they grew up together, and whether or not this is a likely case of Genetic Sexual Attraction.

Don't let this happen to you, lovers. Take steps to protect yourself.

Read more »

Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,courts,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prosecution,siblings,UK

Scotland Still Prosecuting Consenting Adults For Loving Each Other

From this report at stv.tv, it appears as though Scotland is still prosecuting adults for consensual sex. What century is this again?

 

A man is to stand trial accused of having sex with his half-sister.

Doesn't that sound ridiculous? What a waste of resources. Every bit of money and time put into prosecuting this case could have been spent prosecuting abusers.

John Bowes is alleged to have committed an act of incest by sleeping with half-sister Sheila Drummond Bowes at a property in Dundee's Douglas area in summer 2011.

I don't think sleeping is the issue here.

Bowes is alleged to have "had sexual intercourse with a person related to him" between July 26, 2011 and August 4, 2011 at a flat in the city's Ballater Place.

The 48-year-old, of Balunie Crescent, Dundee, denies a charge of incest at the city's sheriff court. A trial date has been set for February and Bowes was released on bail until then.

He's 48. Her age isn't given, but it is likely that she is well into adulthood as well. Why is this a crime? It shouldn't be. And if this was consensual sex, is she being charged, too?  If this wasn't consensual, the report is written very poorly and the charges should be rape. If this was consensual, it shouldn't be a criminal matter at all. They should be free to have sex with each other and marry each other, if that is what they want.

Too many questions aren't answered. I do wonder who reported this to the authorities, whether or not they grew up together, and whether or not this is a likely case of Genetic Sexual Attraction.

Don't let this happen to you, lovers. Take steps to protect yourself.

Read more »

Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,courts,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prosecution,siblings,UK

Update on Carlisle Crown Court Prosecution of Consenting Adults

We now have an update on a case we noticed a few months back.Yes, adults in England continue to be prosecuted for consensual sex, taking resources away from preventing actual crimes, including child abuse. Here's the report from newsandstar.co.uk...

Frank Humphreys and Eleanor Jackson

Both Frank Humphreys, 50, and Eleanor Jackson, 22, pleaded not guilty at court to a charge of having “sex with an adult relative”.

That shouldn't be a crime in the first place.

They spoke to confirm their names and to deny the charges during a brief hearing before the city’s most senior judge, Paul Batty QC.

The charges state they are accused of having sex between December 2011 and February 2012.

And who exactly is the victim? Oh, that's right. There is no victim!

The case was adjourned for a trial early next year and both were released on bail.

We will be watching, Your Honor. Please clear them of all charges and point out the absurdity of prosecuting consenting adults for having sex.

Modern countries must keep evolving until an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, is freed to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,consanguineous,courts,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prejudice,prosecution,UK

Update on Carlisle Crown Court Prosecution of Consenting Adults

We now have an update on a case we noticed a few months back.Yes, adults in England continue to be prosecuted for consensual sex, taking resources away from preventing actual crimes, including child abuse. Here's the report from newsandstar.co.uk...

Frank Humphreys and Eleanor Jackson

Both Frank Humphreys, 50, and Eleanor Jackson, 22, pleaded not guilty at court to a charge of having “sex with an adult relative”.

That shouldn't be a crime in the first place.

They spoke to confirm their names and to deny the charges during a brief hearing before the city’s most senior judge, Paul Batty QC.

The charges state they are accused of having sex between December 2011 and February 2012.

And who exactly is the victim? Oh, that's right. There is no victim!

The case was adjourned for a trial early next year and both were released on bail.

We will be watching, Your Honor. Please clear them of all charges and point out the absurdity of prosecuting consenting adults for having sex.

Modern countries must keep evolving until an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, is freed to share love, sex, residence, and marriage (and any of those without the others) without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,consanguineous,courts,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prejudice,prosecution,UK

The Royal We

A discussion is still underway at theroyalforums.com about "Incestuous Royal Marriages." This blog has noted such things before.
Kataryn started off the discussion YEARS ago...

Legally Catherine of Aragon was married incestually because she as widow of one brother married the other after the first hausband's death.

That's not considered incest in most definitions.

But that's just a formality. History has shown that Royal families did not hesitate to form very close bonds between them. While a marriage of cousin and cousin happened quite often, marriages between unles and nieces are rare - but they happened, too.

One example is the marriage of Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg to Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Marie's mother Antoinette of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld was the sister of the groom.

Then there are the three uncle-niece marriages of the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs:

- Philipp II. married Anna of Austria, the daughter of his sister Marie.

- Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich married Maria Anna of Bavaria, daughter of his sister Anna of Austria.

- Philipp IV. married Marianna of Austria, daughter of his sister Maria Anna.

As you can see, the last three uncle-niece-marriages happened in the House of Habsburg between 1550 and 1660 in the direct line leading to Philipp IV. of Spain and his wife Marianna of Austria. Their child is the sad, sick Don Carlos of Schillerian fame...

Not 100 years later, the House of Habsburg ended in the male line. But of course the marriage of Maria Theresia of Austria to Francis Stephan of Lorraine brought new blood into the family..

As I understand it, uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some places in deference to religious traditions.



Princess Agnes added...

In Portugal there are two cases of marriages to uncles, regarding the only female monarchs.

D. Maria I (1734-1816) married her uncle, Pedro de Bragança (1717-1786) who became D. Pedro III, in 1760.

Her greatgranddaughter, D. Maria II (1819-1853) married her uncle D. Miguel (1802-1866) by proxy in 1826. This marriage was annulled in 1834. This annullment had nothing to do with the close relationship between the spouses (there had been a papal dispensation) but because it had been contracted in an attempt to end the liberal civil wars. D. Miguel didn't fulfill his part of the agreement (he was on the absolutist side) and the marriage ended being annulled. D. Maria II later married Auguste of Beauharnais in 1834 by proxy and personnally in January 1835, although he died in March that year.

She finally married Fernando de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1816-1885) in 1836. After the birth of their first son, he became D. Fernando II.

MAfan added more about Spain...

In the Spanish Royal Family it appears that such marriages were a sort of habit:

- in 1779 Infanta Maria Amalia (Carlos IV's daughter) married her paternal uncle Infante Antonio;
- in 1816 King Fernando VII married his niece Infanta Isabel of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1829 again King Fernando VII married his niece Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Maria Isabel);
- in 1816 Infante Carlos married to his niece Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1838 Infante Carlos married to his niece and sister-in-law Infanta Teresa of Portugal (another daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina, and sister of the above mentioned Isabel and Maria Francisca);
- in 1819 Infante Francisco de Paula (brother of Fernando VII) married to his niece Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Isabel, and sister of the above mentioned Maria Cristina; later Francisco de Paula and Luisa's son, Francisco de Asis, married to Fernando and Maria Cristina's daughter, Queen Isabel II).

Several other descendants of these couples married among themselves.

Alison20 was confused...

It has always seemed very strange to me that no-one in the Spanish RF realised a very basic biological fact, which was that marrying close relatives was not a healthy practice. This was somethat that was understood by even the most isolated and 'primitive' human societies - who made it 'taboo' for a woman to marry a man from her own family group. Perhaps they were so blinded by their belief in their superiority that they didn't think this basic fact applied to them! :-)

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. Not all societies have had a taboo preventing consanguineous marriages. The ones who did were likely more concerned about trading their daughters away as bargaining chips. In other words, the prohibitions were for the same reason the royal families would engage in consanguineous marriages: power. Either gaining it or retaining it.

Grandduchess24 contributed some information about the Norwegian royals...

Queen maud of Norway married her maternal cousin, haakon VII since they are both grandchildren of King Christian IX of Denmark

Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine married her maternal cousin prince Heinrich of Prussia and had 3 sons, is that right?

Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg and Gotha had married firstly her cousin grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse and had a daughter by him but died young, she secondly married her maternal cousin grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich and had two girls and one boy.

King carol II of Romania married his cousin Helen

Marc23 added about the Portugal royals...

And her son Pedro,"product" of uncle and niece was married to his own aunt Maria Francisca who was a sister to his mother and the other niece of his father,who was at the same time his grandfathers younger brother!

pacomartin gave quite a list...

Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts
King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria and Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.
 
Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

theresa_225 offered...

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).

Noble Consort Ming...

I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).

Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

Meraude...

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

norenxaq noted...

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

Keeping it in the caste?

The royals in Egypt, Hawaii, and elsewhere are also mentioned.

Literally all over the world, it has been common for close relatives to marry. In the US, there is a ridiculous stereotype that assigns such marriages or sexual relationships to rural southerners. But the fact is, wealthy people urban residents, and people of any socioeconomic background experience consanguinamory.

It is ridiculous that any US state has restrictions on the consanguineous freedom to marry, let alone laws criminalizing sex between first cousins. This is just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality nationwide. Adults in love who want to marry shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out of they can marry where they live, or if it would be criminal for them to live together if they want to move to another state.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,cousins,Europe,incest,India,siblings,Spain,UK,uncle-niece

The Royal We

A discussion is still underway at theroyalforums.com about "Incestuous Royal Marriages." This blog has noted such things before.
Kataryn started off the discussion YEARS ago...

Legally Catherine of Aragon was married incestually because she as widow of one brother married the other after the first hausband's death.

That's not considered incest in most definitions.

But that's just a formality. History has shown that Royal families did not hesitate to form very close bonds between them. While a marriage of cousin and cousin happened quite often, marriages between unles and nieces are rare - but they happened, too.

One example is the marriage of Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg to Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Marie's mother Antoinette of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld was the sister of the groom.

Then there are the three uncle-niece marriages of the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs:

- Philipp II. married Anna of Austria, the daughter of his sister Marie.

- Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich married Maria Anna of Bavaria, daughter of his sister Anna of Austria.

- Philipp IV. married Marianna of Austria, daughter of his sister Maria Anna.

As you can see, the last three uncle-niece-marriages happened in the House of Habsburg between 1550 and 1660 in the direct line leading to Philipp IV. of Spain and his wife Marianna of Austria. Their child is the sad, sick Don Carlos of Schillerian fame...

Not 100 years later, the House of Habsburg ended in the male line. But of course the marriage of Maria Theresia of Austria to Francis Stephan of Lorraine brought new blood into the family..

As I understand it, uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some places in deference to religious traditions.



Princess Agnes added...

In Portugal there are two cases of marriages to uncles, regarding the only female monarchs.

D. Maria I (1734-1816) married her uncle, Pedro de Bragança (1717-1786) who became D. Pedro III, in 1760.

Her greatgranddaughter, D. Maria II (1819-1853) married her uncle D. Miguel (1802-1866) by proxy in 1826. This marriage was annulled in 1834. This annullment had nothing to do with the close relationship between the spouses (there had been a papal dispensation) but because it had been contracted in an attempt to end the liberal civil wars. D. Miguel didn't fulfill his part of the agreement (he was on the absolutist side) and the marriage ended being annulled. D. Maria II later married Auguste of Beauharnais in 1834 by proxy and personnally in January 1835, although he died in March that year.

She finally married Fernando de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1816-1885) in 1836. After the birth of their first son, he became D. Fernando II.

MAfan added more about Spain...

In the Spanish Royal Family it appears that such marriages were a sort of habit:

- in 1779 Infanta Maria Amalia (Carlos IV's daughter) married her paternal uncle Infante Antonio;
- in 1816 King Fernando VII married his niece Infanta Isabel of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1829 again King Fernando VII married his niece Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Maria Isabel);
- in 1816 Infante Carlos married to his niece Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1838 Infante Carlos married to his niece and sister-in-law Infanta Teresa of Portugal (another daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina, and sister of the above mentioned Isabel and Maria Francisca);
- in 1819 Infante Francisco de Paula (brother of Fernando VII) married to his niece Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Isabel, and sister of the above mentioned Maria Cristina; later Francisco de Paula and Luisa's son, Francisco de Asis, married to Fernando and Maria Cristina's daughter, Queen Isabel II).

Several other descendants of these couples married among themselves.

Alison20 was confused...

It has always seemed very strange to me that no-one in the Spanish RF realised a very basic biological fact, which was that marrying close relatives was not a healthy practice. This was somethat that was understood by even the most isolated and 'primitive' human societies - who made it 'taboo' for a woman to marry a man from her own family group. Perhaps they were so blinded by their belief in their superiority that they didn't think this basic fact applied to them! :-)

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. Not all societies have had a taboo preventing consanguineous marriages. The ones who did were likely more concerned about trading their daughters away as bargaining chips. In other words, the prohibitions were for the same reason the royal families would engage in consanguineous marriages: power. Either gaining it or retaining it.

Grandduchess24 contributed some information about the Norwegian royals...

Queen maud of Norway married her maternal cousin, haakon VII since they are both grandchildren of King Christian IX of Denmark

Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine married her maternal cousin prince Heinrich of Prussia and had 3 sons, is that right?

Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg and Gotha had married firstly her cousin grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse and had a daughter by him but died young, she secondly married her maternal cousin grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich and had two girls and one boy.

King carol II of Romania married his cousin Helen

Marc23 added about the Portugal royals...

And her son Pedro,"product" of uncle and niece was married to his own aunt Maria Francisca who was a sister to his mother and the other niece of his father,who was at the same time his grandfathers younger brother!

pacomartin gave quite a list...

Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts
King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria and Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.
 
Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

theresa_225 offered...

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).

Noble Consort Ming...

I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).

Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

Meraude...

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

norenxaq noted...

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

Keeping it in the caste?

The royals in Egypt, Hawaii, and elsewhere are also mentioned.

Literally all over the world, it has been common for close relatives to marry. In the US, there is a ridiculous stereotype that assigns such marriages or sexual relationships to rural southerners. But the fact is, wealthy people urban residents, and people of any socioeconomic background experience consanguinamory.

It is ridiculous that any US state has restrictions on the consanguineous freedom to marry, let alone laws criminalizing sex between first cousins. This is just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality nationwide. Adults in love who want to marry shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out of they can marry where they live, or if it would be criminal for them to live together if they want to move to another state.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,cousins,Europe,incest,India,siblings,Spain,UK,uncle-niece

Marriage of GSA Couple Annulled

Meredith Hoster reports at highlightpress.com that a marriage has been annulled and there is a new call for changes in adoption regulations in the UK.

In an incredibly rare twist of fate, a married couple in the UK have had their marriage annulled after discovering that they were in fact twins separated at birth. The pair apparently had no idea they were related, though felt an “inevitable attraction” that brought them together.

That's called Genetic Sexual Attraction, and even when people are aware of their genetic relation and GSA, it can still happen.

According to a peer addressing the House of Lords, the case highlights the importance of ensuring all adopted children have access to the details of their biological parents.

The twins at the center of the case have chosen to keep their identities hidden.

There's still much prejudice.

Speaking with the BBC in the UK, the peer spoke of the dangers associated with hiding a person’s identity over the long term. 

“If you start trying to conceal someone’s identity, sooner or later the truth will out,” the peer told the BBC.

“And if you don’t know you are biologically related to someone, you may become attracted to them and tragedies like this may occur.”

Like I said, some people experience GSA even if they know. You can read about some here.

No additional details have been made public about the couple’s future intent, though to continue the relationship even at such a stage would be in violation of UK law.

There are so many questions left unanswered by this report.

Did they have children, and how are those children? Most children born into such situations are healthy, despite myths. My guess is that if there had been children, that would have been mentioned.

Did this couple WANT their marriage annulled? I understand that the law makes it happen, stupidly, regardless of what they want. So for all we know they are still together and did not want their marriage annulled.

It is ridiculous to criminalize consensual relationships between adults, and to deny them the freedom to marry.

Imagine finding someone who makes you so happy and you marry, only to have it all taken away from you. And for what? There's no good reason. An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY and ALL consenting adults, without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prejudice,reunion,siblings,stigma,UK

Marriage of GSA Couple Annulled

Meredith Hoster reports at highlightpress.com that a marriage has been annulled and there is a new call for changes in adoption regulations in the UK.

In an incredibly rare twist of fate, a married couple in the UK have had their marriage annulled after discovering that they were in fact twins separated at birth. The pair apparently had no idea they were related, though felt an “inevitable attraction” that brought them together.

That's called Genetic Sexual Attraction, and even when people are aware of their genetic relation and GSA, it can still happen.

According to a peer addressing the House of Lords, the case highlights the importance of ensuring all adopted children have access to the details of their biological parents.

The twins at the center of the case have chosen to keep their identities hidden.

There's still much prejudice.

Speaking with the BBC in the UK, the peer spoke of the dangers associated with hiding a person’s identity over the long term. 

“If you start trying to conceal someone’s identity, sooner or later the truth will out,” the peer told the BBC.

“And if you don’t know you are biologically related to someone, you may become attracted to them and tragedies like this may occur.”

Like I said, some people experience GSA even if they know. You can read about some here.

No additional details have been made public about the couple’s future intent, though to continue the relationship even at such a stage would be in violation of UK law.

There are so many questions left unanswered by this report.

Did they have children, and how are those children? Most children born into such situations are healthy, despite myths. My guess is that if there had been children, that would have been mentioned.

Did this couple WANT their marriage annulled? I understand that the law makes it happen, stupidly, regardless of what they want. So for all we know they are still together and did not want their marriage annulled.

It is ridiculous to criminalize consensual relationships between adults, and to deny them the freedom to marry.

Imagine finding someone who makes you so happy and you marry, only to have it all taken away from you. And for what? There's no good reason. An adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY and ALL consenting adults, without fear of prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prejudice,reunion,siblings,stigma,UK

Congratulations to England and Wales

Congratulations to all of the couples who will now be able to marry in England and Wales! Thanks to Queen Elizabeth II and all who have said "YES!" to the limited same-gender freedom to marry.

Let's keep evolving towards full marriage equality across the UK and worldwide. There are so many people who are still being denied their rights to marry, or even just love, the person(s) they love.

Read more »

Posted in: freedom to marry,LGBT,same-sex,UK

Congratulations to England and Wales

Congratulations to all of the couples who will now be able to marry in England and Wales! Thanks to Queen Elizabeth II and all who have said "YES!" to the limited same-gender freedom to marry.

Let's keep evolving towards full marriage equality across the UK and worldwide. There are so many people who are still being denied their rights to marry, or even just love, the person(s) they love.

Read more »

Posted in: freedom to marry,LGBT,same-sex,UK

Will Carlisle Crown Court Punish Adults For Consensual Sex?

Many people are rightly shocked to learn that consensual sex between adults can still considered a criminal act in many supposedly modern places, and that people continue to be prosecuted for such a "crime." From newsandstar.co.uk comes this short report about two consenting adults being prosecuted in England for having consensual sex with each other.

A father and daughter are to go on trial accused of incest.

This shouldn't be a crime, unless we are talking about abusing minors.

Fifty-year-old Frank Christopher Humphreys and his 22-year-old daughter Eleanor Jackson deny the charge and will go on trial later in the year at Carlisle Crown Court.
The two, from Cleator Moor, are accused of consensual sex between December 2011 and February 2012.

Why is this a criminal matter?

Humphreys is accused of having sex with his daughter “knowing that she was related to you in that way.” Jackson faces a similar charge.

So who is the victim???

Both denied the offence when they appeared before magistrates in Workington.
The case was sent to Carlisle Crown Court to be next heard on September 30.

Carlisle is in Cumbria, England.

I wonder how this became a criminal matter? Did someone rat them out? I also notice she had a different last name. Is that a married name, or did she grow up apart from him, likely making this a matter of Genetic Sexual Attraction?

No matter who doesn't like the idea, these two should be free to love each other any way they want. Instead of being prosecuted, they should be offered marriage. What a waste of government resources this prosecution is. Outrageous.

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,consanguineous,courts,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prejudice,prosecution,UK

Will Carlisle Crown Court Punish Adults For Consensual Sex?

Many people are rightly shocked to learn that consensual sex between adults can still considered a criminal act in many supposedly modern places, and that people continue to be prosecuted for such a "crime." From newsandstar.co.uk comes this short report about two consenting adults being prosecuted in England for having consensual sex with each other.

A father and daughter are to go on trial accused of incest.

This shouldn't be a crime, unless we are talking about abusing minors.

Fifty-year-old Frank Christopher Humphreys and his 22-year-old daughter Eleanor Jackson deny the charge and will go on trial later in the year at Carlisle Crown Court.
The two, from Cleator Moor, are accused of consensual sex between December 2011 and February 2012.

Why is this a criminal matter?

Humphreys is accused of having sex with his daughter “knowing that she was related to you in that way.” Jackson faces a similar charge.

So who is the victim???

Both denied the offence when they appeared before magistrates in Workington.
The case was sent to Carlisle Crown Court to be next heard on September 30.

Carlisle is in Cumbria, England.

I wonder how this became a criminal matter? Did someone rat them out? I also notice she had a different last name. Is that a married name, or did she grow up apart from him, likely making this a matter of Genetic Sexual Attraction?

No matter who doesn't like the idea, these two should be free to love each other any way they want. Instead of being prosecuted, they should be offered marriage. What a waste of government resources this prosecution is. Outrageous.

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,consanguineous,courts,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,prejudice,prosecution,UK

Cousin Marriages From a Genetic Perspective

A blog about gene expression at Discover Magazine took a look at “the individual & social risks of cousin marriage,” and it even had maps.

In the United States there’s a stereotype of cousin marriage being the practice of backward hillbillies or royalty. For typical middle class folk it’s relatively taboo, with different legal regimes by state. The history of cousin marriage in the West has been one of ups & downs. Marriage between close relatives was not unknown in antiquity. The pagan emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, while the Christian emperor Heraclius married his niece Martina. Marriage between cousins were presumably more common.

How did things change?

With the rise in the West of the Roman Catholic Church marriages between cousins were officially more constrained. Adam Bellow argues in In Praise of Nepotism: A Natural History that there’s a material explanation for this: the Roman church used its power over the sacrament of marriage to control the aristocracy.

That’s interesting.

More precisely the coefficient of kinship between two first cousins is 1/8. That means that at any given locus there’s a 1 out of 8 chance that the two individuals will have alleles which are identical by descent, which means that the genetic variant comes down from the same person in the family line.

If the allele is “good,” that is, totally normal/wild type, not associated with any pathology, then we’re in the clear. That’s why most first cousin marriages don’t produce children who are monsters. What a first cousin marriage does is change the odds. How you present these odds matters a great deal in how scary they sound. If I told you than the chance of first cousins having children with a birth defect is 4-7%, vs. 3-4% for a non-consanguineous couple, it might not sound that bad. But if I told you that the odds of having a birth defect is ~50% greater, then it sounds worse.

He got more technical and moved on to discuss Muslims in Britain.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,cousins,Islam,religion,science,UK

Sam Woolfe is Another Ally For the Polygamous Freedom to Marry

Sam Woolfe at thebackbencher.co.uk had a piece that asked, "Should Polygamy Be Legalized?"  He does a rather good job countering some of the typical misinformation about polygamy and polyamory used by those who want to deny people this freedom to marry and relationship rights.

Polygamy, or a marriage involving more than two partners, is illegal in most countries. Polygamous marriages may not be performed in the UK, and if one is performed then the already married person is guilty of the crime of bigamy. Bigamy is the act of entering into a marriage with one person, whilst already being married to someone else.

I can understand having laws against defrauding someone by hiding an existing marriage or "secretly" entering into a new one while still married to someone who would not agree, but there should be no laws barring the polygamous freedom to marry when all involved agree.

 Where polygamy is legal, those who have entered into a polygamous marriage are still discriminated against – their marriage is not recognised for pension, immigration or citizenship purposes.

Ridiculous.

There are different forms of polygamy.

Wow! Finally, an article that does not take a "Muslim or Mormon-polygyny is the only form of polygamy" assumption.

For those who think that polygamy is illegal because it is unnatural, immoral or harmful should recognise that it is a common practice worldwide, and is even more common than monogamy. For example, the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook includes an analysis of 1,231 different societies. Out of all these societies, 186 were monogamous, 453 had occasional polygyny, 588 had frequent polygyny, and 4 practised polyandry.

Group marriage is not so uncommon either. Christopher Ryan in his recent book, Sex At Dawn goes through the evidence which suggests that our ancestors preferred a multiple-mate system. Our ancestors were promiscuous, not in the sense of sleeping with strangers, but in the sense that an individual would have multiple mates at any given time. 

With all of that in mind, try not to snicker the next time someone pushing hetero-monogamy as the only acceptable relationship model for all refers to "traditional marriage."

The claim that polygamy should be illegal because it is immoral and harmful also loses validity when we look at this practice among indigenous cultures. As a case in point, the Mosuo people who live in China have polyamorous relationships without any sign of harm to them, their children or to the community at large. In fact, anthropologists have argued that this system serves to strengthen family bonds, friendships and the vitality of the community.

Sometimes I suspect that one of the reasons some people are so set on denying other people the right to marry is because they're afraid their own marriages will look dull or miserable by comparison. Want to cut down on problem marriages? Prosecute abusers and leave others alone to have the relationships they want.

Read more »

Posted in: allies,bigamy,freedom to marry,human origins,lack of equality harms,law,polyamory,polygamy,UK

Sam Woolfe is Another Ally For the Polygamous Freedom to Marry

Sam Woolfe at thebackbencher.co.uk had a piece that asked, "Should Polygamy Be Legalized?"  He does a rather good job countering some of the typical misinformation about polygamy and polyamory used by those who want to deny people this freedom to marry and relationship rights.

Polygamy, or a marriage involving more than two partners, is illegal in most countries. Polygamous marriages may not be performed in the UK, and if one is performed then the already married person is guilty of the crime of bigamy. Bigamy is the act of entering into a marriage with one person, whilst already being married to someone else.

I can understand having laws against defrauding someone by hiding an existing marriage or "secretly" entering into a new one while still married to someone who would not agree, but there should be no laws barring the polygamous freedom to marry when all involved agree.

 Where polygamy is legal, those who have entered into a polygamous marriage are still discriminated against – their marriage is not recognised for pension, immigration or citizenship purposes.

Ridiculous.

There are different forms of polygamy.

Wow! Finally, an article that does not take a "Muslim or Mormon-polygyny is the only form of polygamy" assumption.

For those who think that polygamy is illegal because it is unnatural, immoral or harmful should recognise that it is a common practice worldwide, and is even more common than monogamy. For example, the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook includes an analysis of 1,231 different societies. Out of all these societies, 186 were monogamous, 453 had occasional polygyny, 588 had frequent polygyny, and 4 practised polyandry.

Group marriage is not so uncommon either. Christopher Ryan in his recent book, Sex At Dawn goes through the evidence which suggests that our ancestors preferred a multiple-mate system. Our ancestors were promiscuous, not in the sense of sleeping with strangers, but in the sense that an individual would have multiple mates at any given time. 

With all of that in mind, try not to snicker the next time someone pushing hetero-monogamy as the only acceptable relationship model for all refers to "traditional marriage."

The claim that polygamy should be illegal because it is immoral and harmful also loses validity when we look at this practice among indigenous cultures. As a case in point, the Mosuo people who live in China have polyamorous relationships without any sign of harm to them, their children or to the community at large. In fact, anthropologists have argued that this system serves to strengthen family bonds, friendships and the vitality of the community.

Sometimes I suspect that one of the reasons some people are so set on denying other people the right to marry is because they're afraid their own marriages will look dull or miserable by comparison. Want to cut down on problem marriages? Prosecute abusers and leave others alone to have the relationships they want.

Read more »

Posted in: allies,bigamy,freedom to marry,human origins,lack of equality harms,law,polyamory,polygamy,UK

A Lifelong Love Denied Marriage Equality

In my quest to speed the arrival of relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality, I come in contact with a rich diversity of people. Some of those people tell me about their youthful experimentation with their siblings, or later flings with another close relative, and tell me it was mainly about experimenting and learning or mainly about sex.

Others tell me about their deep, abiding, wholistic love with their close relative, relationships that are more beautiful and profound than most of the other marriages you see… the ones that don’t have to be hidden in a closet. Bearsbaby was generous with her time and privacy, sharing with me to provide the follow interview, which is one of the best so far. (I am bumping up this interview because it is one of my favorites and still as relevant as ever.)

*****

Bearsbaby is an attractive, and as you will see, eloquent woman living in Scotland. She is in her mid-30s and a “born and bred” highlander. She works as a personal assistant for her brother, who works in law helping the disabled. Sometimes, she is also caretaker to her brother due to serious ongoing health problems.

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: You live with your brother. Does anyone else live with you?

Bearsbaby: Me and my brother live as husband and wife. Although nobody lives with us, we do have pets, and we quite often have our elder sister come and stay for anything up to a month at a time. We deliberately moved to a city so we could be together and build our relationship together.


FME: Is your brother your full blood brother? Is he younger or older than you, and if so, by how much? What other siblings do you have and are they older, younger, what?

My bear is my full blood brother and is a year older than myself. I have an elder sister, a younger brother and an older brother. Due to our relationship though, we no longer have contact with our older brother.

FME: Describe your relationship with your brother.

Our relationship is a very loving one, and my brother is my whole life to me, and I know I am his life and reason for living. We aren't just brother and sister, we are the best of friends, soulmates and the other half to each others wings. We have a very close and intimate relationship, which includes lovemaking. I can't sleep at night without him being by my side, I cry when he is in the hospital, etc. To me, there is only one person I have ever loved, and ever will, and that is my sweet darling brother.

FME: What was your relationship with your brother like prior to the inclusion of sex?

I have always been close to my brother, even as children we always seemed to get on better with each other than all our other siblings. We were raised by our parents in a very close knit community, which was quite hard, mainly because it became so difficult to hide our relationship away. Mum and Dad always said we were like 2 peas in the same pod even as children.

FME: When/how did you first realize sex with your brother was a possibility and that you wanted it? Did such feelings seem strange to you or like something you had previously considered to be wrong?

I knew by the age of 13. I was very sexually attracted to my brother, but even though we both had the sexual attraction towards each other, we didn’t make love for the first time until a couple of years later. To us there was nothing wrong or strange with our feelings; it always felt just right. We had built our love up from an early age and to both of us, love isn't wrong. How can sexual attraction be wrong when you have the love there?

FME: Who made the first move? How did it happen? Was it planned or spontaneous?

I don't really think either of us made the first move. We had been in love for 4 years before we became sexually active like that. It was one of those moments that just felt it was right for the both of us. I know the first time we made love, I felt… well, how to put this... home.

It was the most heavenly and loving feeling I had ever felt in the world, and I knew that  I wanted my brother to be my one and only for the rest of my life from that point on.

We built our love up over many years. At 11 years old, I was craving to just be with him even if it was doing homework together and holding his hand under the table. At that age you do get confused with emotions and feelings, but then this is the learning process as you grow up, but to me, it always felt right. Of course we had ups and downs, we argued, we fought at times, but we always kissed and made up, literally. Even at an early age, we always managed to slip away for a moment to have a kiss before bed.

There were times that I doubted myself, and whether I would always be able to give my brother the love he deserved, but this was more prevalent during his times of illness and hospitalisation.

One thing that I always knew though, no matter how ill he got, I loved him. I would even play truant from school just to visit him in the hospital, etc. This was my loved one, my one and only, and I would have and still would do anything for him. He really is my one, my only, my heart, my soul, my every waking breath, and always will be. I have never wanted to be with anyone else; I have only ever wanted my brother.

FME: Some say a consanguinamorous brother and sister are kinky by definition, but I disagree and notice that most consanguinamorous relationships look like any other relationship, although usually with much more intensity. Do you feel like your relationship is taboo, and if so, do you like that or get a thrill from that? Or does it feel normal?

What is taboo about love? Our hearts and souls choose who we love, and who we want to share our lives with, so when you find that one special person, then how can it be so wrong or taboo? We are a strong loving couple, we have been brought up together, we have learned as kids more about each other than many couples would learn about each other in a lifetime. So what that we are brother and sister? We are a strong, loving couple, and always will be. A relationship is built on love, trust, security, the ability to communicate with each other, and the ability to still learn more about each other. We have the advantage of having a whole lifetime of building this up with each other. Therefore, I feel it is a much stronger relationship, and definitely a more loving one, that many would never find in their lifetime.

FME: Does anyone in your life know the full, true nature/history of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted? Are you able to act like a couple in public... does anyone know you as a couple but not as brother and sister? What kind of steps, if any, have you had to take to keep your privacy?

We have a very supportive family, and they know everything about our relationship. That included our grandparents. Our doctor and my brother’s medical team know about our relationship also. They had inklings years ago, and we finally admitted our relationship to his team, and they don't even batter an eyelid now. They just see the couple we are.

It was mum and dad that caught us out big-time. They found us sound asleep cuddled up naked together, so really there was no hiding from that point. Yeah, it caused hell at first, but after they realised that we had actually been in love for 4 years by this time, they took the difficult decision to support us.

Now, if you look at us, you would see a normal husband and wife relationship, we walk down the street holding hands etc, but then that's all we are... a strong loving couple. This is why we made the decision to move to a different city over 200 miles away from our original home.

FME: Having to hide the full nature of your relationship from some people can be a disadvantage. Are there any other disadvantages? Conversely, do you think family members have some advantages and some things better than unrelated lovers?

Hiding away always has disadvantages, but it's how you make the best or worst of the situation that will either make or break you as a couple. Of course being in the type of relationship we are in would seem so taboo and wrong to society, so you have to be strong enough in each other and as a couple to be able to hide the fact you are related.

It hasn't been a bed of roses for us, in fact it's been hell at times. When we first got found out, it nearly broke us and the family to pieces. We have also had to make the conscious decision to have no more contact with our eldest brother, due to sibling rivalry. He wanted a bit of what we had together, but only the sexual part. So we were left with no choice but to literally disown him. So there are a lot of disadvantages.

FME: You're an attractive woman. Some people do know you are brother and sister, or did when you were younger. How do/did you deal with people who are interested in dating you, or with people who want to fix you up with someone, or ask you why you're not with someone?

The only people that know I am living with my brother are our family and medical teams; apart from that we are a 'married' couple. Of course when I was younger I had people try and pick me up, but my brother was always by my side, and if they knew us as brother and sister, then he would defend me by saying something like "Are you trying to hit on my sister?" If nobody knew who we were, then he would come over and be the man I love, and hold me kiss me, and then say something like "Hey loser, are you trying to pick up my WIFE!?!"

I would also do the same for him, but nowadays we don't have anyone see us as anything different as husband and wife. I wear his ring, and he wears mine. As highlanders we took a decision to declare our love to each other formally in front of those we loved, so we had a Celtic commitment ceremony. To us this was our marriage, and from that point we became in our hearts husband and wife, and with that we dedicated our life and our love to each other.

So no matter who finds me attractive, my heart, my soul, my body, my everything, belongs to my brother, and always will.

FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your relationship, or disapprove of anyone having this kind of relationship? What's your reply to those who would say that if a brother and sister have this kind of relationship, it is only because the sister is being victimized by the brother?

I would like to say that you have the biggest disability of all: a negative attitude. Take time to see the couple we are, take time to listen and learn, after all we are all the same underneath, we all have the same feelings and emotions, we all love and can be loved, so why should we not be with the one person who makes us feel complete?

There is a difference between a consensual relationship and one that is non-consensual. That’s what defines the difference between a relationship and abuse. If you are not willing to learn about our type of relationship, then it's YOU that's making us the victims. So aren't you the ones abusing us by victimizing us?

FME: What advice do you have for someone who is curious or has romantic or sexual feelings for a close relative? What advice do you have for parents who find out their children (perhaps still living at home) are involved with each other?

For those who are curious, I would say keep at as curiosity only. Your heart will tell you if this will ever come to anything, so follow it, and even if you never end up in a relationship, you will always have a close bond.

For those who have sexual feelings to a close relationship, I would ask them to question if they aren't confusing love with lust. There is one heck of a difference. Lust can't make you feel complete; it's nothing but sexual desire. So even though you may have sexual feelings, is it really worth ruining what you have learned together over the years because of lust? Think long and hard. If you know 100% that you have sexual feelings because of love, then follow your hearts. If it's just lust, then it's time to back away.

For the family and relatives, my advice would be quite simple. You are the family and loved ones that make us the people who we are from a very early stage of life. You teach us what is right and wrong, yet as adults, you choose to become childish if you refuse to listen and even try to understand. Love chooses it's path for everyone. You brought us into this world because of love. You gave us the ability to understand things in life, so don't lose it yourself by refusing to understand us.

FME: If you could get legally married, and that included protections against discrimination, harassment, etc., would you?

In a heartbeat. My brother is my life, he is everything I could ever want in a man. I have loved him for 24 years now, he is the only man I have loved and ever will, so even though we live as husband and wife, it would be dream come true to legally marry him.

FME: Any plans for the future?

We find it difficult to make long term plans because of the health problems that my brother will suffer from throughout his life. Due to his medical condition, we both know he will spend the whole of his life having tests, having tumours form, and one day it will claim his life, so we live and love every day of our lives for what it is.

However next year, we are having a family party to celebrate that we have been together 25 years.

FME: Do you know in-person others who have had relationships like yours?

Only online. We keep our relationship quite private and we want people to see us as a couple, and we see everyone else for who they are. So we may have met other couples like us and not known it; we just see everyone for the loving people we all are and can be.

FME: Anything else you want to add?

We all love for the same reason: our hearts and souls tell us that the person we are with is the right one for us. Follow your heart, listen to your soul. When you know your heart, mind and soul speak as one, it's right. Love never judges anyone, so don't judge until you fully understand. We may be related, but look past that, see us for who we are. 

He's my brother, yet he's also my bear. He’s a Grizzly in his fight to give disabled people the right to lead as normal a life as you and me, yet my Teddy Bear when he's in my arms. Don't discriminate us, don't judge us. We have a right to live and love, just like everybody else does.

*****



Dear reader, if you can read that and still support laws against consanguinamory and still think it is acceptable to deny siblings the right to marry and deny marriage equality, then I don’t see how you can live with yourself. It is cruel and heartless to discriminate against, ridicule, and criminalize such a beautiful and pure love. If only most marriages in this world were anything close to this loving, the world would be a better place.


Thanks again to Bearsbaby for sharing.

If you are in a relationship involving conanguinamory or consensual incest, know someone who is, support those who are, or just want to know more about such relationships, I’m not aware of any better place to discuss them than the Kindred Spirits forum. Also, please join the group I Support Full Marriage Equality on Facebook.

You can read other interviews like this here.

If you are in, or have been in, a “forbidden” consensual relationship, and want to be interviewed, please contact me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,incest,lack of equality harms,love,monogamy,siblings,UK

A Lifelong Love Denied Marriage Equality

In my quest to speed the arrival of relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality, I come in contact with a rich diversity of people. Some of those people tell me about their youthful experimentation with their siblings, or later flings with another close relative, and tell me it was mainly about experimenting and learning or mainly about sex.

Others tell me about their deep, abiding, wholistic love with their close relative, relationships that are more beautiful and profound than most of the other marriages you see… the ones that don’t have to be hidden in a closet. Bearsbaby was generous with her time and privacy, sharing with me to provide the follow interview, which is one of the best so far. (I am bumping up this interview because it is one of my favorites and still as relevant as ever.)

*****

Bearsbaby is an attractive, and as you will see, eloquent woman living in Scotland. She is in her mid-30s and a “born and bred” highlander. She works as a personal assistant for her brother, who works in law helping the disabled. Sometimes, she is also caretaker to her brother due to serious ongoing health problems.

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: You live with your brother. Does anyone else live with you?

Bearsbaby: Me and my brother live as husband and wife. Although nobody lives with us, we do have pets, and we quite often have our elder sister come and stay for anything up to a month at a time. We deliberately moved to a city so we could be together and build our relationship together.


FME: Is your brother your full blood brother? Is he younger or older than you, and if so, by how much? What other siblings do you have and are they older, younger, what?

My bear is my full blood brother and is a year older than myself. I have an elder sister, a younger brother and an older brother. Due to our relationship though, we no longer have contact with our older brother.

FME: Describe your relationship with your brother.

Our relationship is a very loving one, and my brother is my whole life to me, and I know I am his life and reason for living. We aren't just brother and sister, we are the best of friends, soulmates and the other half to each others wings. We have a very close and intimate relationship, which includes lovemaking. I can't sleep at night without him being by my side, I cry when he is in the hospital, etc. To me, there is only one person I have ever loved, and ever will, and that is my sweet darling brother.

FME: What was your relationship with your brother like prior to the inclusion of sex?

I have always been close to my brother, even as children we always seemed to get on better with each other than all our other siblings. We were raised by our parents in a very close knit community, which was quite hard, mainly because it became so difficult to hide our relationship away. Mum and Dad always said we were like 2 peas in the same pod even as children.

FME: When/how did you first realize sex with your brother was a possibility and that you wanted it? Did such feelings seem strange to you or like something you had previously considered to be wrong?

I knew by the age of 13. I was very sexually attracted to my brother, but even though we both had the sexual attraction towards each other, we didn’t make love for the first time until a couple of years later. To us there was nothing wrong or strange with our feelings; it always felt just right. We had built our love up from an early age and to both of us, love isn't wrong. How can sexual attraction be wrong when you have the love there?

FME: Who made the first move? How did it happen? Was it planned or spontaneous?

I don't really think either of us made the first move. We had been in love for 4 years before we became sexually active like that. It was one of those moments that just felt it was right for the both of us. I know the first time we made love, I felt… well, how to put this... home.

It was the most heavenly and loving feeling I had ever felt in the world, and I knew that  I wanted my brother to be my one and only for the rest of my life from that point on.

We built our love up over many years. At 11 years old, I was craving to just be with him even if it was doing homework together and holding his hand under the table. At that age you do get confused with emotions and feelings, but then this is the learning process as you grow up, but to me, it always felt right. Of course we had ups and downs, we argued, we fought at times, but we always kissed and made up, literally. Even at an early age, we always managed to slip away for a moment to have a kiss before bed.

There were times that I doubted myself, and whether I would always be able to give my brother the love he deserved, but this was more prevalent during his times of illness and hospitalisation.

One thing that I always knew though, no matter how ill he got, I loved him. I would even play truant from school just to visit him in the hospital, etc. This was my loved one, my one and only, and I would have and still would do anything for him. He really is my one, my only, my heart, my soul, my every waking breath, and always will be. I have never wanted to be with anyone else; I have only ever wanted my brother.

FME: Some say a consanguinamorous brother and sister are kinky by definition, but I disagree and notice that most consanguinamorous relationships look like any other relationship, although usually with much more intensity. Do you feel like your relationship is taboo, and if so, do you like that or get a thrill from that? Or does it feel normal?

What is taboo about love? Our hearts and souls choose who we love, and who we want to share our lives with, so when you find that one special person, then how can it be so wrong or taboo? We are a strong loving couple, we have been brought up together, we have learned as kids more about each other than many couples would learn about each other in a lifetime. So what that we are brother and sister? We are a strong, loving couple, and always will be. A relationship is built on love, trust, security, the ability to communicate with each other, and the ability to still learn more about each other. We have the advantage of having a whole lifetime of building this up with each other. Therefore, I feel it is a much stronger relationship, and definitely a more loving one, that many would never find in their lifetime.

FME: Does anyone in your life know the full, true nature/history of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted? Are you able to act like a couple in public... does anyone know you as a couple but not as brother and sister? What kind of steps, if any, have you had to take to keep your privacy?

We have a very supportive family, and they know everything about our relationship. That included our grandparents. Our doctor and my brother’s medical team know about our relationship also. They had inklings years ago, and we finally admitted our relationship to his team, and they don't even batter an eyelid now. They just see the couple we are.

It was mum and dad that caught us out big-time. They found us sound asleep cuddled up naked together, so really there was no hiding from that point. Yeah, it caused hell at first, but after they realised that we had actually been in love for 4 years by this time, they took the difficult decision to support us.

Now, if you look at us, you would see a normal husband and wife relationship, we walk down the street holding hands etc, but then that's all we are... a strong loving couple. This is why we made the decision to move to a different city over 200 miles away from our original home.

FME: Having to hide the full nature of your relationship from some people can be a disadvantage. Are there any other disadvantages? Conversely, do you think family members have some advantages and some things better than unrelated lovers?

Hiding away always has disadvantages, but it's how you make the best or worst of the situation that will either make or break you as a couple. Of course being in the type of relationship we are in would seem so taboo and wrong to society, so you have to be strong enough in each other and as a couple to be able to hide the fact you are related.

It hasn't been a bed of roses for us, in fact it's been hell at times. When we first got found out, it nearly broke us and the family to pieces. We have also had to make the conscious decision to have no more contact with our eldest brother, due to sibling rivalry. He wanted a bit of what we had together, but only the sexual part. So we were left with no choice but to literally disown him. So there are a lot of disadvantages.

FME: You're an attractive woman. Some people do know you are brother and sister, or did when you were younger. How do/did you deal with people who are interested in dating you, or with people who want to fix you up with someone, or ask you why you're not with someone?

The only people that know I am living with my brother are our family and medical teams; apart from that we are a 'married' couple. Of course when I was younger I had people try and pick me up, but my brother was always by my side, and if they knew us as brother and sister, then he would defend me by saying something like "Are you trying to hit on my sister?" If nobody knew who we were, then he would come over and be the man I love, and hold me kiss me, and then say something like "Hey loser, are you trying to pick up my WIFE!?!"

I would also do the same for him, but nowadays we don't have anyone see us as anything different as husband and wife. I wear his ring, and he wears mine. As highlanders we took a decision to declare our love to each other formally in front of those we loved, so we had a Celtic commitment ceremony. To us this was our marriage, and from that point we became in our hearts husband and wife, and with that we dedicated our life and our love to each other.

So no matter who finds me attractive, my heart, my soul, my body, my everything, belongs to my brother, and always will.

FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your relationship, or disapprove of anyone having this kind of relationship? What's your reply to those who would say that if a brother and sister have this kind of relationship, it is only because the sister is being victimized by the brother?

I would like to say that you have the biggest disability of all: a negative attitude. Take time to see the couple we are, take time to listen and learn, after all we are all the same underneath, we all have the same feelings and emotions, we all love and can be loved, so why should we not be with the one person who makes us feel complete?

There is a difference between a consensual relationship and one that is non-consensual. That’s what defines the difference between a relationship and abuse. If you are not willing to learn about our type of relationship, then it's YOU that's making us the victims. So aren't you the ones abusing us by victimizing us?

FME: What advice do you have for someone who is curious or has romantic or sexual feelings for a close relative? What advice do you have for parents who find out their children (perhaps still living at home) are involved with each other?

For those who are curious, I would say keep at as curiosity only. Your heart will tell you if this will ever come to anything, so follow it, and even if you never end up in a relationship, you will always have a close bond.

For those who have sexual feelings to a close relationship, I would ask them to question if they aren't confusing love with lust. There is one heck of a difference. Lust can't make you feel complete; it's nothing but sexual desire. So even though you may have sexual feelings, is it really worth ruining what you have learned together over the years because of lust? Think long and hard. If you know 100% that you have sexual feelings because of love, then follow your hearts. If it's just lust, then it's time to back away.

For the family and relatives, my advice would be quite simple. You are the family and loved ones that make us the people who we are from a very early stage of life. You teach us what is right and wrong, yet as adults, you choose to become childish if you refuse to listen and even try to understand. Love chooses it's path for everyone. You brought us into this world because of love. You gave us the ability to understand things in life, so don't lose it yourself by refusing to understand us.

FME: If you could get legally married, and that included protections against discrimination, harassment, etc., would you?

In a heartbeat. My brother is my life, he is everything I could ever want in a man. I have loved him for 24 years now, he is the only man I have loved and ever will, so even though we live as husband and wife, it would be dream come true to legally marry him.

FME: Any plans for the future?

We find it difficult to make long term plans because of the health problems that my brother will suffer from throughout his life. Due to his medical condition, we both know he will spend the whole of his life having tests, having tumours form, and one day it will claim his life, so we live and love every day of our lives for what it is.

However next year, we are having a family party to celebrate that we have been together 25 years.

FME: Do you know in-person others who have had relationships like yours?

Only online. We keep our relationship quite private and we want people to see us as a couple, and we see everyone else for who they are. So we may have met other couples like us and not known it; we just see everyone for the loving people we all are and can be.

FME: Anything else you want to add?

We all love for the same reason: our hearts and souls tell us that the person we are with is the right one for us. Follow your heart, listen to your soul. When you know your heart, mind and soul speak as one, it's right. Love never judges anyone, so don't judge until you fully understand. We may be related, but look past that, see us for who we are. 

He's my brother, yet he's also my bear. He’s a Grizzly in his fight to give disabled people the right to lead as normal a life as you and me, yet my Teddy Bear when he's in my arms. Don't discriminate us, don't judge us. We have a right to live and love, just like everybody else does.

*****



Dear reader, if you can read that and still support laws against consanguinamory and still think it is acceptable to deny siblings the right to marry and deny marriage equality, then I don’t see how you can live with yourself. It is cruel and heartless to discriminate against, ridicule, and criminalize such a beautiful and pure love. If only most marriages in this world were anything close to this loving, the world would be a better place.


Thanks again to Bearsbaby for sharing.

If you are in a relationship involving conanguinamory or consensual incest, know someone who is, support those who are, or just want to know more about such relationships, I’m not aware of any better place to discuss them than the Kindred Spirits forum. Also, please join the group I Support Full Marriage Equality on Facebook.

You can read other interviews like this here.

If you are in, or have been in, a “forbidden” consensual relationship, and want to be interviewed, please contact me at fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com.

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Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,incest,lack of equality harms,love,monogamy,siblings,UK