Discovering Consanguinamory in the Family Tree

I am [or, had been] active on [a certain Big Online Portal's question and answer service], especially when it comes to explaining the importance of relationship rights, full marriage equality, and decriminalizing consanguinamory. Someone had this question...

Family Tree Concerns..?
My Grandfather recently passed away and my Grandmother told us all that her and my Grandfather were never married, they had always celebrated an anniversary (or so we thought,) but didn't understand while she waited till he died before telling us. After further research into my family tree I have discovered that my Grandmother married her Uncle (is this incest!?!), my Mother feels all weird because it feels like her life has been a lie and the only person she could have asked and got a proper answer was her Dad but now he's gone so we are both just looking for some advice or if anyone has been or is going through a similar situation...

This was my answer, which was chosen as the best answer (thankyouverymuch)...
= = = =
Here's what matters: Was your grandfather a good person? A good spouse to your Grandmother? A good parent? A good grandparent? THAT is what matters, not any genetic or legal relation to your grandmother. There's no lie about any of that. Your mother's life is no different now than it was before she knew that information. She's just allowing cultural prejudices to influence her reaction. Your grandparents had what is called a common-law marriage. As long as they were good to each other, that is what matters.

You didn't make it clear, but it appears you mean your grandfather was the brother of one of your grandmother's parents (he would still be an "uncle" to her if he had, at one time, been married to one of your grandmother's parents' sister without any biological relation to your grandmother). Assuming there was a genetic connection (though it is possible he had been adopted into the family, too), that is still no reason for alarm. This is much more common than people think. People are finding out about this through DNA testing and family records, although family records don't always reveal the truth. If you go back further, it is virtually guaranteed you'll find you have consanguineous ancestors.

You don't have to go too far back in anyone's family tree to find these kinds of things. I doubt there is a person out there whose ancestry has nothing like this.

In other words.... you and your family are as normal as everyone else.
= = =

Just about everyone has incestuous childbearing in their family tree. In some cases, someone was raped, which  of course is a horrible,  or there was cheating. In other cases, it was true love between people who were not cheating on anyone. If the law prevented them from legally marrying or from telling the truth, that is a problem, a terrible problem, of the law, and just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality. It is not something wrong with the lovers.

Read more »

Posted in: coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,FAQ,freedom to marry,incest,lack of equality harms,love,stigma,uncle-niece

A Young Woman Denied Her Rights

By my count, this is the twenty-eighth ongoing relationship I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are denied their fundamental right to marry. This is a possible case of Genetic Sexual Attraction.

Jacquelynn is a beautiful young woman. If you want to see her NOT SAFE FOR WORK Tumblr, you can find it here.


Read the interview below and ask yourself if there is one good reason her right to love the adults she does should be denied.


*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background.

Jacquelynn: My name is Jacquelynn. I’m a white female American of legal age. I live on the North East side of the U.S. I am the oldest blood sister of 6 (soon to be 7) siblings. None of my siblings are my full siblings. They are all my half-siblings.


FME: Are you married or have you ever been married?

No, I am not married. Nor have I ever been married.


FME: How would you describe your sexual orientation and your relationship?

I am bisexual and in a genetically incestuous relationship.




FME: You currently live with…?

Roommates would be the best way to describe them.


FME: You are in a sexual relationship with your genetic half-brother?

Yes, I am. I love him so much.


FME: What kind of relationship did you and your brother have, if any, while growing up?

While growing up we had no relationship whatsoever. I didn’t end up reuniting with my little brother until I was 18. It was so much fun. I really enjoyed seeing him for the first time in so many years. But, what I wasn’t expecting was the strong attraction to him that I felt. It may seem cliché but, it was actually “love at first sight”.


FME: Do you know the term "Genetic Sexual Attraction," and if so, when did you find out about that? Do you think that is what you were feeling with your brother?

Yes, I know what “Genetic Sexual Attraction” is. I Googled it a few years ago. I do feel genetic sexual attraction to my brother, but it’s more than just the sexual attraction. I’m romantically involved with him as well. I’m in love with him.


FME: How did sexual affection become a part of your relationship?

The way that it happened initially was sudden. Allow me to explain… I've been having dreams of making love with my brother for years and it had finally gotten the better of me. Then came the hard part... I had to talk to my brother about it. When I confided in my brother I made sure to stress to him that it was only a dream and if he said no I would not be mad. It took him like a week to think about it. I agreed and waited patiently. He was shocked to say the least. But, after he got done thinking about it I can safely say that I was more shocked than him when he told me that he would like to (physically) be a part of my fantasy. I invited him over one night and when everyone was asleep we made love. For him it was his first time, with me being a few years older than him. I made sure to take it slow and I told him that if he was uncomfortable with anything that we were doing to let me know. After our first time together as lovers we were hooked. I created my blog and shortly after he created his as well. On our blogs we go by false names so that no one will know who we are. It was a very happy and floating kind of buzz. Such an amazing feeling.


FME: How do you describe the sex/lovemaking now? Taboo? Natural? Especially erotic? Is it family-with-benefits, an affair, girlfriend-boyfriend, a marriage, what?

I would describe it as a few things… Family-with-benefits, lovers, best friends and girlfriend-boyfriend.


FME: You also had prior experience with your maternal uncle. How did things go with him, and why did they stop? Did anyone find out about it? How did they react?

I had approached my uncle with questions about sex and the male physical body because I was too scared to approach my parents. Little did I know that my answers would become somewhat erotic. Back then I had no idea what incest was and when I fooled around with my uncle I had no idea that it was considered 'forbidden' or 'taboo'. All I knew was that I loved my uncle and I enjoyed our private time together. I think that's where all of my incestuous urges and desires came from. My uncle and I had lost touch over the years because he lives in a different state and I had no way to contact him.

My family found out about it. In the time where we lost touch I felt hurt, used and betrayed because he left without any explanation. So, I mistakenly confided in one of my siblings. I had no idea that the sibling was going to go home and blab. I was entrusting my sibling with my deepest secret because I needed someone to talk to about it. When I got home all hell broke loose with my mother, who had no idea until then. She thought that I was lying. I was in tears because I was telling the truth and felt like she wasn't gonna believe me. My mother threatened to call my uncle and get the truth from him because she was positive that I was lying. I was so scared that he was gonna lie to save his own ass.

To my relief he confessed to everything. My mother came back to me afterwards and hugged me and apologized for calling me a liar. She informed my grandpa about it all and between the two of them they made sure to keep us apart.


FME: Some people say consanguineous eroticism is inherently kinky, but I have found that for many it doesn't feel kinky. What about for you? Some say it is the best sex they've ever had.

It is the best sex that I’ve ever had. But, I must agree that it doesn’t feel kinky.


FME: Describe your relationship with your brother now. Are you siblings or lovers or are those two roles inseparable?

We are still family (as our cover story) but, behind the scenes we are lovers and in a boyfriend/girlfriend type of relationship. We do not live together. Our roles are definitely inseparable. There is definitely a huge difference between my relationship with my uncle and the one that I currently have with my brother. With my uncle we were just teasing each other because he was too scared to get caught or to get me pregnant. With Asreal we are still careful so that we don’t get caught but, at the same time it’s more than just teasing. We make love.


FME: Does anyone in your life know the full, true nature/history of your relationship with your brother and how did they find out?

Only a few people that I have told know my full true story. The only family that knows is my uncle… I think you can understand my reasoning’s behind that. They have reacted just fine. Like it’s a normal occurrence. Sadly, we are not able to act like a couple in public. Everyone that we know knows us as siblings so it would be awkward if we were to run into some of our friends or family… We are siblings to everyone that knows us.


FME: What kind of steps, if any, have you had to take to keep your privacy? Having to hide the full nature of your relationship from some people can be a disadvantage. Can you describe how that has been?

We have had to take every cautionary step possible. It’s been relatively easy hiding our true nature, but I hate having to hide it. I wish that everyone would accept us as a couple and be perfectly fine with it. It should be a normal thing. We are consenting adults after all!


FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your relationship, or disapprove of anyone having this kind of relationship? What's your reply to those who would say that this is one of you preying on the other (and that you can’t truly consent)?

I would tell them to get a life that way they could leave mine alone.


FME: Aside from the law, which I think is ridiculous, can you think of anything that would make relationships like this inherently wrong?

It would only be wrong in my eyes if the relationship was not between consenting adults.


FME: If you could get legally married, and that included protections against discrimination, harassment, etc., would you? Or is this a different kind of relationship than that?

Yes, I would LOVE to marry my brother.


FME: What advice do you have for someone who may be experiencing feelings for a sibling or some other relative?

I would say this: Come talk to me. My blog is always open and the advice that I would give is always true, free and personal. I normally talk to the person one-on-one and then after hearing their story and emotions I would give my advice. Also, if they would like for me to keep their advice private LET ME KNOW. Otherwise I post my advice with their original question (not the personal story) for others to read that may be having the same thoughts and situations.


FME: What advice do you have for family members and friends who think or know that relatives they know are having these feelings for each other?

Sames as I just said. Come talk to me.


FME: Do you know in-person others who have had relationships like yours?

No, I do not. But, I would love to meet some.


FME: What do you have to say to anyone who says you're not for real?

You need to get out more! Relationships like this DO happen.


FME: Anything else you want to add?

If anyone needs advice you may follow me and Asreal on Tumblr.

*****

Here are their NOT SAFE FOR WORK Tumblr blogs:
http://awesomesexysister.tumblr.com/
http://the-wonderful-world-of-porn.tumblr.com/


There you have it. Consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone, but who have to hide their love, denied their right to marry.

Why should they be denied their rights? There’s no good reason.We need to recognize that all adults should be free to be with any and all consenting adults as they mutually consent, and part of doing that is adopting relationship rights for all, including full marriage equality sooner rather than later. People are being hurt because of a denial of their basic human rights to love each other freely.

You can read other interviews I have done here.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this.

If you are a family member or friend of someone who is in or may be in such a relationship, please read this.

Thank you to Jacquelynn  for doing this interview!

Read more »

Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,GSA,lack of equality harms,love,reunion,siblings,uncle-niece

Discovering Consanguinamory in the Family Tree

I am [or, had been] active on [a certain Big Online Portal's question and answer service], especially when it comes to explaining the importance of relationship rights, full marriage equality, and decriminalizing consanguinamory. Someone had this question...

Family Tree Concerns..?
My Grandfather recently passed away and my Grandmother told us all that her and my Grandfather were never married, they had always celebrated an anniversary (or so we thought,) but didn't understand while she waited till he died before telling us. After further research into my family tree I have discovered that my Grandmother married her Uncle (is this incest!?!), my Mother feels all weird because it feels like her life has been a lie and the only person she could have asked and got a proper answer was her Dad but now he's gone so we are both just looking for some advice or if anyone has been or is going through a similar situation...

This was my answer, which was chosen as the best answer (thankyouverymuch)...
= = = =
Here's what matters: Was your grandfather a good person? A good spouse to your Grandmother? A good parent? A good grandparent? THAT is what matters, not any genetic or legal relation to your grandmother. There's no lie about any of that. Your mother's life is no different now than it was before she knew that information. She's just allowing cultural prejudices to influence her reaction. Your grandparents had what is called a common-law marriage. As long as they were good to each other, that is what matters.

You didn't make it clear, but it appears you mean your grandfather was the brother of one of your grandmother's parents (he would still be an "uncle" to her if he had, at one time, been married to one of your grandmother's parents' sister without any biological relation to your grandmother). Assuming there was a genetic connection (though it is possible he had been adopted into the family, too), that is still no reason for alarm. This is much more common than people think. People are finding out about this through DNA testing and family records, although family records don't always reveal the truth.

You don't have to go too far back in anyone's family tree to find these kinds of things. I doubt there is a person out there whose ancestry has nothing like this.

In other words.... you and your family are as normal as everyone else.
= = =

Just about everyone has incestuous childbearing in their family tree. In some cases, someone was raped, which  of course is a horrible,  or there was cheating. In other cases, it was true love between people who were not cheating on anyone. If the law prevented them from legally marrying or from telling the truth, that is a problem, a terrible problem, of the law, and just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality. It is not something wrong with the lovers.

Read more »

Posted in: coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,FAQ,freedom to marry,incest,lack of equality harms,love,stigma,uncle-niece

The Royal We

A discussion is still underway at theroyalforums.com about "Incestuous Royal Marriages." This blog has noted such things before.
Kataryn started off the discussion YEARS ago...

Legally Catherine of Aragon was married incestually because she as widow of one brother married the other after the first hausband's death.

That's not considered incest in most definitions.

But that's just a formality. History has shown that Royal families did not hesitate to form very close bonds between them. While a marriage of cousin and cousin happened quite often, marriages between unles and nieces are rare - but they happened, too.

One example is the marriage of Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg to Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Marie's mother Antoinette of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld was the sister of the groom.

Then there are the three uncle-niece marriages of the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs:

- Philipp II. married Anna of Austria, the daughter of his sister Marie.

- Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich married Maria Anna of Bavaria, daughter of his sister Anna of Austria.

- Philipp IV. married Marianna of Austria, daughter of his sister Maria Anna.

As you can see, the last three uncle-niece-marriages happened in the House of Habsburg between 1550 and 1660 in the direct line leading to Philipp IV. of Spain and his wife Marianna of Austria. Their child is the sad, sick Don Carlos of Schillerian fame...

Not 100 years later, the House of Habsburg ended in the male line. But of course the marriage of Maria Theresia of Austria to Francis Stephan of Lorraine brought new blood into the family..

As I understand it, uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some places in deference to religious traditions.



Princess Agnes added...

In Portugal there are two cases of marriages to uncles, regarding the only female monarchs.

D. Maria I (1734-1816) married her uncle, Pedro de Bragança (1717-1786) who became D. Pedro III, in 1760.

Her greatgranddaughter, D. Maria II (1819-1853) married her uncle D. Miguel (1802-1866) by proxy in 1826. This marriage was annulled in 1834. This annullment had nothing to do with the close relationship between the spouses (there had been a papal dispensation) but because it had been contracted in an attempt to end the liberal civil wars. D. Miguel didn't fulfill his part of the agreement (he was on the absolutist side) and the marriage ended being annulled. D. Maria II later married Auguste of Beauharnais in 1834 by proxy and personnally in January 1835, although he died in March that year.

She finally married Fernando de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1816-1885) in 1836. After the birth of their first son, he became D. Fernando II.

MAfan added more about Spain...

In the Spanish Royal Family it appears that such marriages were a sort of habit:

- in 1779 Infanta Maria Amalia (Carlos IV's daughter) married her paternal uncle Infante Antonio;
- in 1816 King Fernando VII married his niece Infanta Isabel of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1829 again King Fernando VII married his niece Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Maria Isabel);
- in 1816 Infante Carlos married to his niece Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1838 Infante Carlos married to his niece and sister-in-law Infanta Teresa of Portugal (another daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina, and sister of the above mentioned Isabel and Maria Francisca);
- in 1819 Infante Francisco de Paula (brother of Fernando VII) married to his niece Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Isabel, and sister of the above mentioned Maria Cristina; later Francisco de Paula and Luisa's son, Francisco de Asis, married to Fernando and Maria Cristina's daughter, Queen Isabel II).

Several other descendants of these couples married among themselves.

Alison20 was confused...

It has always seemed very strange to me that no-one in the Spanish RF realised a very basic biological fact, which was that marrying close relatives was not a healthy practice. This was somethat that was understood by even the most isolated and 'primitive' human societies - who made it 'taboo' for a woman to marry a man from her own family group. Perhaps they were so blinded by their belief in their superiority that they didn't think this basic fact applied to them! :-)

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. Not all societies have had a taboo preventing consanguineous marriages. The ones who did were likely more concerned about trading their daughters away as bargaining chips. In other words, the prohibitions were for the same reason the royal families would engage in consanguineous marriages: power. Either gaining it or retaining it.

Grandduchess24 contributed some information about the Norwegian royals...

Queen maud of Norway married her maternal cousin, haakon VII since they are both grandchildren of King Christian IX of Denmark

Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine married her maternal cousin prince Heinrich of Prussia and had 3 sons, is that right?

Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg and Gotha had married firstly her cousin grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse and had a daughter by him but died young, she secondly married her maternal cousin grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich and had two girls and one boy.

King carol II of Romania married his cousin Helen

Marc23 added about the Portugal royals...

And her son Pedro,"product" of uncle and niece was married to his own aunt Maria Francisca who was a sister to his mother and the other niece of his father,who was at the same time his grandfathers younger brother!

pacomartin gave quite a list...

Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts
King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria and Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.
 
Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

theresa_225 offered...

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).

Noble Consort Ming...

I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).

Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

Meraude...

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

norenxaq noted...

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

Keeping it in the caste?

The royals in Egypt, Hawaii, and elsewhere are also mentioned.

Literally all over the world, it has been common for close relatives to marry. In the US, there is a ridiculous stereotype that assigns such marriages or sexual relationships to rural southerners. But the fact is, wealthy people urban residents, and people of any socioeconomic background experience consanguinamory.

It is ridiculous that any US state has restrictions on the consanguineous freedom to marry, let alone laws criminalizing sex between first cousins. This is just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality nationwide. Adults in love who want to marry shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out of they can marry where they live, or if it would be criminal for them to live together if they want to move to another state.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,cousins,Europe,incest,India,siblings,Spain,UK,uncle-niece

The Royal We

A discussion is still underway at theroyalforums.com about "Incestuous Royal Marriages." This blog has noted such things before.
Kataryn started off the discussion YEARS ago...

Legally Catherine of Aragon was married incestually because she as widow of one brother married the other after the first hausband's death.

That's not considered incest in most definitions.

But that's just a formality. History has shown that Royal families did not hesitate to form very close bonds between them. While a marriage of cousin and cousin happened quite often, marriages between unles and nieces are rare - but they happened, too.

One example is the marriage of Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg to Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Marie's mother Antoinette of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld was the sister of the groom.

Then there are the three uncle-niece marriages of the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs:

- Philipp II. married Anna of Austria, the daughter of his sister Marie.

- Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich married Maria Anna of Bavaria, daughter of his sister Anna of Austria.

- Philipp IV. married Marianna of Austria, daughter of his sister Maria Anna.

As you can see, the last three uncle-niece-marriages happened in the House of Habsburg between 1550 and 1660 in the direct line leading to Philipp IV. of Spain and his wife Marianna of Austria. Their child is the sad, sick Don Carlos of Schillerian fame...

Not 100 years later, the House of Habsburg ended in the male line. But of course the marriage of Maria Theresia of Austria to Francis Stephan of Lorraine brought new blood into the family..

As I understand it, uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some places in deference to religious traditions.



Princess Agnes added...

In Portugal there are two cases of marriages to uncles, regarding the only female monarchs.

D. Maria I (1734-1816) married her uncle, Pedro de Bragança (1717-1786) who became D. Pedro III, in 1760.

Her greatgranddaughter, D. Maria II (1819-1853) married her uncle D. Miguel (1802-1866) by proxy in 1826. This marriage was annulled in 1834. This annullment had nothing to do with the close relationship between the spouses (there had been a papal dispensation) but because it had been contracted in an attempt to end the liberal civil wars. D. Miguel didn't fulfill his part of the agreement (he was on the absolutist side) and the marriage ended being annulled. D. Maria II later married Auguste of Beauharnais in 1834 by proxy and personnally in January 1835, although he died in March that year.

She finally married Fernando de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1816-1885) in 1836. After the birth of their first son, he became D. Fernando II.

MAfan added more about Spain...

In the Spanish Royal Family it appears that such marriages were a sort of habit:

- in 1779 Infanta Maria Amalia (Carlos IV's daughter) married her paternal uncle Infante Antonio;
- in 1816 King Fernando VII married his niece Infanta Isabel of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1829 again King Fernando VII married his niece Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Maria Isabel);
- in 1816 Infante Carlos married to his niece Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1838 Infante Carlos married to his niece and sister-in-law Infanta Teresa of Portugal (another daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina, and sister of the above mentioned Isabel and Maria Francisca);
- in 1819 Infante Francisco de Paula (brother of Fernando VII) married to his niece Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Isabel, and sister of the above mentioned Maria Cristina; later Francisco de Paula and Luisa's son, Francisco de Asis, married to Fernando and Maria Cristina's daughter, Queen Isabel II).

Several other descendants of these couples married among themselves.

Alison20 was confused...

It has always seemed very strange to me that no-one in the Spanish RF realised a very basic biological fact, which was that marrying close relatives was not a healthy practice. This was somethat that was understood by even the most isolated and 'primitive' human societies - who made it 'taboo' for a woman to marry a man from her own family group. Perhaps they were so blinded by their belief in their superiority that they didn't think this basic fact applied to them! :-)

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. Not all societies have had a taboo preventing consanguineous marriages. The ones who did were likely more concerned about trading their daughters away as bargaining chips. In other words, the prohibitions were for the same reason the royal families would engage in consanguineous marriages: power. Either gaining it or retaining it.

Grandduchess24 contributed some information about the Norwegian royals...

Queen maud of Norway married her maternal cousin, haakon VII since they are both grandchildren of King Christian IX of Denmark

Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine married her maternal cousin prince Heinrich of Prussia and had 3 sons, is that right?

Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg and Gotha had married firstly her cousin grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse and had a daughter by him but died young, she secondly married her maternal cousin grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich and had two girls and one boy.

King carol II of Romania married his cousin Helen

Marc23 added about the Portugal royals...

And her son Pedro,"product" of uncle and niece was married to his own aunt Maria Francisca who was a sister to his mother and the other niece of his father,who was at the same time his grandfathers younger brother!

pacomartin gave quite a list...

Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts
King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria and Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.
 
Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

theresa_225 offered...

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).

Noble Consort Ming...

I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).

Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

Meraude...

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

norenxaq noted...

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

Keeping it in the caste?

The royals in Egypt, Hawaii, and elsewhere are also mentioned.

Literally all over the world, it has been common for close relatives to marry. In the US, there is a ridiculous stereotype that assigns such marriages or sexual relationships to rural southerners. But the fact is, wealthy people urban residents, and people of any socioeconomic background experience consanguinamory.

It is ridiculous that any US state has restrictions on the consanguineous freedom to marry, let alone laws criminalizing sex between first cousins. This is just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality nationwide. Adults in love who want to marry shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out of they can marry where they live, or if it would be criminal for them to live together if they want to move to another state.

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Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,cousins,Europe,incest,India,siblings,Spain,UK,uncle-niece

Uganda With the Wind

Uganda sure seems like a hellhole, with the corruption and the horrifying human rights record. Extreme homophobia is enough reason to stay way from the place. Now comes this report from Betty Angatai at newvision.co.ug about how some married heterosexuals are treated. I hope all peaceful and loving people can get out of there.

A 40-year-old man in Mayuge district has been expelled from his ‘Baise Magumba’ clan over incest after he married his 25-year-old niece.

Jowali Waiswa, a resident of Kavule village in Imanyiro sub-county, was on Sunday expelled after his clan members complained about his act of marrying a relative, an act that is against the norms of the clan and the Busoga culture.

Dalausi Magumba, the leader of the clan, said Waiswa secretly married his sister’s daughter and has stayed with her for six years, during which they have produced three children.

And yet the world didn't end. So why not leave them alone to love each other? Notice that no mention is made that there is anything wrong with the children. I'm sure that would have been included if there was.

Before he was expelled, Waiswa was tasked to avail the clan with three goats, two doves and two black cocks as a fine for cleansing his misdeeds.

If he has two to give, then that's the biggest news of all! (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) Sounds to me like the clan just wanted some more goats and birds.

He is also alleged to have slept with his grandmother before she passed away two years back.

Maybe the two cocks were too much for her?

However, in his defence, Waiswa said he was cursed by his parents. He pleaded guilty to all the accusations.

Maybe if he'd given his parents two cocks, one for each of them, they wouldn't have cursed him?

In a similar development, residents of Bulondo village in Buwaya sub-county also expelled Saida Naigaga, 60 and her daughter Hajira Kauma, 38 from the area for allegedly engaging in quarrels and fights over a man.

Sounds like he only had one cock to give, and they both wanted it at the same time?

Sorry, folks. Inside every man there's a 13-year-old boy who sometimes gets out. Getting serious, the real news here is that anyone is trying to stop consenting adults from loving each other in the way they want. It's waste of time at "best" and cruel at its worst. It shouldn't be anyone else's concern if other adults get together or break up.

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Posted in: breaking up homes,children,consanguineous,family reaction,grandmother-grandson,lack of equality harms,law,love,mother-daughter,persecution,prejudice,Uganda,uncle-niece

When Incest is a Consensual, Positive Experience

There are people who would have everyone believe that there are no happy consanguinamorous relationships. That romance or eroticism with a close biological relative can only be a bad experience. Over at PFI [a site that doesn't exist anymore... go to Kindred Spirits for an existing place to talk], one discussion participant asked a question and answered it first…

If you could go back in time to where it all started and have the knowledge you do now about what lay ahead of you in this thing called incest, would you still go through with it ??

i've thought about it many times, and the answer i come up is yes i would, sure there are many tears and hard times you go through, but for me the good has always outweighed the bad, life is what you make of it, and we've made a very good life for ourselves....

The first response…

In spite of all the difficulties, I'd do it all the same way. This kind of love is so much deeper and comfortable and intense than anything I've experienced with other people. It's just that worth it, in my opinion.

The second response…

If I could go back in time, knowing what I now know, I would have gladly lost my virginity to uncle. We had the opportunity when I was 16 and I bottled it and I do regret that. I feel I have wasted too many years worrying about possible consequences and I'm kicking myself! I'm just enjoying making up for lost time with my darling. We can't meet up very often so every second is precious with him but we email every day and telephone every week. He truly makes my heart leap for joy.

The third response…

If I could go back to that time, knowing what I know now, I would not have been so concerned about the rest of the world. Not so worried about what they would think or say or do. I would have more trust in my love and my own feelings. We wasted so many years of our life, stuck, not being together and longing for each other. We were not following our hearts. Now, being without her would be the most horrible form of hell I can imagine.

The fourth response came from the third respondent’s partner…

Awww... I feel the same way. I wish I could go back to that moment knowing what I know now... I would be in your arms in a heartbeat you are my soulmate and I love you...

The fifth response…

Yep!

Another…

It's not always fun and games,but I've never regretted it.We've had a lot of good times together and I look forward to many,many more special memories.It's great to be with someone who I can experience that deep emotional connection with.I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Not one of the responses I saw expressed regret at having gotten involved in consanguinamory.

If you haven't done so already, be sure to read the interviews I have conducted here.

Every sexual or romantic relationship carries the risk of heartache. Consenting adults should not also be forced to endure prosecution nor persecution. They should he allowed their happiness. And if they do break up, they should be comforted, rather than lectured.

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Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,father-daughter,love,mother-son,sister-sister,uncle-niece

When Incest is a Consensual, Positive Experience

There are people who would have everyone believe that there are no happy consanguinamorous relationships. That romance or eroticism with a close biological relative can only be a bad experience. Over at PFI [a site that doesn't exist anymore... go to Kindred Spirits for an existing place to talk], one discussion participant asked a question and answered it first…

If you could go back in time to where it all started and have the knowledge you do now about what lay ahead of you in this thing called incest, would you still go through with it ??

i've thought about it many times, and the answer i come up is yes i would, sure there are many tears and hard times you go through, but for me the good has always outweighed the bad, life is what you make of it, and we've made a very good life for ourselves....

The first response…

In spite of all the difficulties, I'd do it all the same way. This kind of love is so much deeper and comfortable and intense than anything I've experienced with other people. It's just that worth it, in my opinion.

The second response…

If I could go back in time, knowing what I now know, I would have gladly lost my virginity to uncle. We had the opportunity when I was 16 and I bottled it and I do regret that. I feel I have wasted too many years worrying about possible consequences and I'm kicking myself! I'm just enjoying making up for lost time with my darling. We can't meet up very often so every second is precious with him but we email every day and telephone every week. He truly makes my heart leap for joy.

The third response…

If I could go back to that time, knowing what I know now, I would not have been so concerned about the rest of the world. Not so worried about what they would think or say or do. I would have more trust in my love and my own feelings. We wasted so many years of our life, stuck, not being together and longing for each other. We were not following our hearts. Now, being without her would be the most horrible form of hell I can imagine.

The fourth response came from the third respondent’s partner…

Awww... I feel the same way. I wish I could go back to that moment knowing what I know now... I would be in your arms in a heartbeat you are my soulmate and I love you...

The fifth response…

Yep!

Another…

It's not always fun and games,but I've never regretted it.We've had a lot of good times together and I look forward to many,many more special memories.It's great to be with someone who I can experience that deep emotional connection with.I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Not one of the responses I saw expressed regret at having gotten involved in consanguinamory.

If you haven't done so already, be sure to read the interviews I have conducted here.

Every sexual or romantic relationship carries the risk of heartache. Consenting adults should not also be forced to endure prosecution nor persecution. They should he allowed their happiness. And if they do break up, they should be comforted, rather than lectured.

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Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,father-daughter,love,mother-son,sister-sister,uncle-niece

Yes, Iowa Still Prosecutes Consenting Adults

We now have an update of a criminal case out of Iowa involving adults. The previous coverage is here. As I suspected, this is a matter of sex between consenting adults and charging them with a crime for that is absurd. Randy M. Cauthron at spenderdailyreporter.com writes...

A preliminary hearing, originally scheduled for today, has been cancelled according to Clay County Attorney Mike Houchins after trial information, in an alleged incest case involving an uncle and a niece, was filed by District Court Judge Charles Borth Tuesday. Felony incest charges were filed against Elizabeth Ann Welch, 18, and Jerrold Marble, 35, Jan. 7, following an investigation initiated by the Department of Human Services and Spencer Police Department just prior to Thanksgiving.

Houchins summed up the basic facts of the investigation associated with the allegations.

"The two individuals were charged with incest. They were relatives and apparently, from the facts, it was consensual. And they were charged," Houchins said.

Let them go! It was consensual. This shouldn't be a crime.

So how did the authorities get involved? This is how...

"Law enforcement were called to the house due to a disturbance," the county attorney continued. "While they were interviewing occupants of the house, information came out that led to the charges."

Laws against consanguinamory are unjust, but they're still in effect in many places. There is nothing wrong with refusing to incriminate yourself, or even lying to avoid an unjust law. There was no need to tell law enforcement what they were doing or have done together.

Houchins indicated he doesn't anticipate any further charges associated with the specific allegations in this case.

Then drop the charges and apologize. There's no victim! Now, if one is beating up on the other, then there should be assault charges. But that's not on the table.

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Posted in: breaking up homes,consanguineous,courts,incest,Iowa,lack of equality harms,law,prosecution,uncle-niece

Yes, Iowa Still Prosecutes Consenting Adults

We now have an update of a criminal case out of Iowa involving adults. The previous coverage is here. As I suspected, this is a matter of sex between consenting adults and charging them with a crime for that is absurd. Randy M. Cauthron at spenderdailyreporter.com writes...

A preliminary hearing, originally scheduled for today, has been cancelled according to Clay County Attorney Mike Houchins after trial information, in an alleged incest case involving an uncle and a niece, was filed by District Court Judge Charles Borth Tuesday. Felony incest charges were filed against Elizabeth Ann Welch, 18, and Jerrold Marble, 35, Jan. 7, following an investigation initiated by the Department of Human Services and Spencer Police Department just prior to Thanksgiving.

Houchins summed up the basic facts of the investigation associated with the allegations.

"The two individuals were charged with incest. They were relatives and apparently, from the facts, it was consensual. And they were charged," Houchins said.

Let them go! It was consensual. This shouldn't be a crime.

So how did the authorities get involved? This is how...

"Law enforcement were called to the house due to a disturbance," the county attorney continued. "While they were interviewing occupants of the house, information came out that led to the charges."

Laws against consanguinamory are unjust, but they're still in effect in many places. There is nothing wrong with refusing to incriminate yourself, or even lying to avoid an unjust law. There was no need to tell law enforcement what they were doing or have done together.

Houchins indicated he doesn't anticipate any further charges associated with the specific allegations in this case.

Then drop the charges and apologize. There's no victim! Now, if one is beating up on the other, then there should be assault charges. But that's not on the table.

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Posted in: breaking up homes,consanguineous,courts,incest,Iowa,lack of equality harms,law,prosecution,uncle-niece

Convoluted Legal Restrictions on Consent

Although the age of consent varies from country to country, and in the US, from state to state, this blog is generally not about altering age of consent laws. An exception to this is that I think the laws should be consistent. By that I mean that if, say, a 17-year-old can legally consent to sex with a complete stranger, they should be free to consent to sex with, say, an aunt or uncle. An example of the problem that selective restrictions cause is shown below.

Here's another one of those articles that is missing some important information. Stan Maddux wrote at Indiana's heraldgus.com...

A 45-year-old Westville-area man admitted to having sexual contact with a family member.

The man entered a plea agreement Friday in La Porte Circuit Court. Terms call for a five-year prison sentence for Class C felony incest.

Notice that the charge is "incest" and it is referred to as "sexual contact," no charges or mentions of assault of any kind. From the official state website:

IC 35-46-1-3
Incest
     Sec. 3. (a) A person eighteen (18) years of age or older who engages in sexual intercourse or deviate sexual conduct with another person, when the person knows that the other person is related to the person biologically as a parent, child, grandparent, grandchild, sibling, aunt, uncle, niece, or nephew, commits incest, a Class C felony. However, the offense is a Class B felony if the other person is less than sixteen (16) years of age.
    (b) It is a defense that the accused person's otherwise incestuous relation with the other person was based on their marriage, if it was valid where entered into.

So if half-siblings legally married in Sweden, and moved to Indiana, they could have sex all they want. But if their neighbors were half-siblings, not only could they not get married, but they could get prosecuted. Wouldn't it just be easier to let anyone of the age of consent have consensual sex with anyone else of the age of consent, and not get law enforcement involved?

While being questioned by La Porte County Deputy Prosecutor Beth Beckman, the man admitted to engaging in sexual contact with a female biological relative in 2009 at his home in the 8600 block of West 350 South.

In the US, there is something called the right to remain silent. Use it, people!

She was 16 at the time of the acts, which allegedly occurred during the summer. According to court documents, the man was also convicted of incest on the same victim in Michigan.

The age of consent in both Indiana and Michigan is 16. However, the law in Indiana says that while a 16-year-old can consent to sex with ten different 50-year-old strangers every night, she can't consent to sex with a guardian, custodian, adoptive parent, adoptive grandparent, stepparent, her child care worker, or a military recruiter who is trying to enlist her, until she is 18. Sex with biological or genetic relations is criminalized under anti-incest law listed up above, so it isn't legal for her to consent to sex with a biological relative no matter how old she is. So, if she's 18 and meets her genetic father, having never met him before or having any communication with him whatsoever (let's say she is the product of a one night stand,) it is illegal for her to have sex with him, but perfectly legal, apparently, for her to go home to the stepfather who has raised her since birth and have sex with him. Again, wouldn't it just be easier to let anyone of the age of consent have consensual sex with anyone else of the age of consent, and not get law enforcement involved?

In Michigan, the age of consent is also bumped up to 18 if the situation involves an authority figure.

He was serving a 5- to 15-year sentence at the Lakeland Correctional Facility in Coldwater, Mich., when he was transported to La Porte County to face the charges in the local jurisdication.

The now 20-year-old woman told authorities she also had sexual contact with the man when he came to visit her while she was living with her mother near Detroit, court records disclosed.

She "told authorities." But was it in response to them interrogating her? Or did she call them to complain? If she didn't, who did? If this was some form of assault, why isn't he being charged under sexual assault or rape laws? The defendant obviously doesn't have regular custody of her. Whether he's her biological father or uncle, we're not told.

The victim told investigators he would rent a motel room where the sexual acts occurred in Michigan.

Although it is still possible this is a matter of assault, is it really likely that, given their recent history, she would have gone to a hotel room with him if she didn't want to have sex with him? She didn't live with him and they had "sexual contact" multiple times, in at least two different states.

The plea agreement was taken under advisement by the court and, if accepted, Judge Tom Alevizos scheduled sentencing for Dec. 21.

Please, Judge Alevizos, if this isn't a matter of assault, then do not send him to prison.

Considering he would have faced this same charge whether she was 16, 18, 25, or 40, this brings up an issue of concern to many. Some people who do support the rights of siblings to be together have a problem with parents and their adult children being together. The concern usually cited is that a parent will "groom" their own child, and then, when the child reaches the age of consent (let's pick California, where the age is 18,) the parent pounces on their brainwashed child.

Absent a severe disability that makes it impossible, I maintain that it is child abuse for a parent to neglect to raise their child to be an independent adult in every sense of the word. "Grooming" would be child abuse. If, however, as an independent adult, a woman (or man) were to return to her parent(s) and freely choose to commence sexual contact, marriage, etc., I do not think the law should interfere. I think the law is ridiculous when it says an 18-year-old woman can consent to join the military, vote, run for certain political offices, operate heavy machinery, and have sex with ten different strangers a night, but not marry two men at the same time or have sex with certain people she already knows and loves.


Some cite the power differential or the emotional imbalance. However, it is legal for her to have sex with a music or movie star she's idolized since she was 12, or the President of the United States, or a billionaire, or anyone else, so these reasons are not consistently applied, but rather seems like an attempt to justify putting or keeping a personal dislike into law.

Arbitrary lines create inequality. For example, it is illegal for a woman to have sex with a genetic uncle she never met until she was an adult, but not an older neighbor or an uncle-through-marriage who practically raised her. Other than age of consent, I do not see any restriction that consistently respects her choices with her own body. Not all choices will be good ones or ones I may like, but I do not support having strangers tell an adult (woman in this example) which other adults she can have sex with or marry.

We have real examples of states (like Rhode Island, for example) and countries where an adult can legally consent to have sex with their own parent. Has anyone noticed that those places have an increase problems correlating to this? I think the answer is no.

It comes back to this: an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with ANY consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. We're not going to like all of the relationships that other people have, but those relationships should be theirs to have, or not. Adopting this approach will make our laws less intrusive, less wasteful, and will promote equality and will help actual victims to come forward.

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Posted in: boundaries,consanguineous,courts,father-daughter,incest,Indiana,lack of equality harms,law,media,Michigan,uncle-niece

Politician in Zimbabwe Prosecuted Under Incest Laws

In what appears to be a more pressing matter of child support, a politician in Zimbabwe is making headlines for having consanguinamorous relationships. Of course, the headlines focus on "incest." From zimdiaspora.com...

A ZIMBABWEAN politician Fidelis Mhashu, whose wife left for the United Kingdom in 2003 and never came back, says he ended up in an incestuous relationship with his two nieces due to loneliness.

Both cases resulted in the birth of four children.

Mr Mhashu who is also Chitungwiza North legislator and former Minister of National Housing and Social Amenities is now facing charges of engaging in incestuous relationship under Zimbabwe traditional court system in his home area of Mhondoro.

Consensual incest should not be a crime in the first place.

Mr Mhashu (70), who later dumped both women has confessed the unlawful unions, claiming that he had been driven to incest by his wife’s departure to Britain in 2003.

It would make sense that he would seek companionship, but who he found it with has nothing to do with anything else.

He said the women, one of whom has since died, had actu­ally become his wives.

Mhondoro’s Chief Chivero fined Mr Mhashu 15 head of cattle for the offences a fortnight ago. However, the former minister said he was appealing against that ruling because of the “excessive’’ fine.  The cattle are sup­posed to compensate the women’s families.

Hold on a minute while I check what year it is...

Mr Mhashu said although he had relationships with his two nieces, who were sisters, he had not forced or sexu­ally abused any of them as their family is now claiming.

“I was lonely when my wife and children left the country for the UK. I then requested for assistance from my nieces at family level, but, unfortu­nately we ended up falling in love. It is not true that I raped them.”

One of the women, who was 20 years old when she began the relation­ship with Mr Mhashu in 2008, last week accused the former minister of neglecting her and their two children.

“I have two surviving children with this man.

The other one is only seven weeks old and, unfortunately, I cannot breastfeed the child.

“We have no food and I am now relying on handouts from neighbours for survival.”

So this appears to be a child support issue. Making sure children are taken care of is more important than whether or not consenting adults had sex, right?

The brother said Mr Mhashu sought refuge at their family home in 2004 when he fled alleged political violence in Chitungwiza. At that time, he asked the late sister to be his private secretary.

“He came with nothing, but, as an uncle, we had to accommodate him. Within a few months we discovered that he was having an incestuous relation­ship with my older sister.

“We tried to talk to both of them, but all our advice fell on deaf ears. He would always plead with the elders to conceal the crime for fear of public embarrassment,” he said.

The sister, however, died in 2007.

“While my elder sister was hospitalised, he (Mhashu) requested my younger sister to assist him in caring for her. Soon after her death, we again dis­covered that he had begun a relationship with the younger one. We tried to warn him, but he would always plead with us promising to marry her, which he never did.’’

It appears what we have here, at worst, is a bitter fight over child support. I did not see in the articles about this whether these women are nieces through a brother or sister of Mhashu, or through his wife. I think the implication is that they are actual blood relatives of his. Of course I have no problem with any adults sharing sex and love, but I do have a problem with people who don't provide or make arrangements for their children.

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Posted in: Africa,boundaries,children,consanguineous,family reaction,incest,law,politicians,prejudice,prosecution,uncle-niece,Zimbabwe

Three Loving Relationships That Face Discrimination

It seems like every week now I want to post some things from Kindred Spirits forum, which is the best place I know of to discuss consanguinamory. Below are things written by three people who each in relationships that would be subject to prosecution, persecution, discrimination… you name it… in so many places. (If you want to join the forum, please be sure to read and follow the rules or you'll be dropped.)

A woman I’ve quoted before, who is in a spousal relationship with her brother, wrote a profoundly touching entry…

Just the other day my elder sister said something that really got me thinking, and I started wondering if what she said could actually be true.

She said to me “You know what sis, you were born to love your brother”. When I asked what she meant by that she told me how she had always felt as if me and [my brother] were just made for each other, even before we started into a relationship. Well obviously this got me thinking on this, and after talking things over with [my brother], I have to agree with her statement.



Now obviously you know a bit about my relationship with my brother, but I have never really opened up fully about it before, so here is our life, then you can decide…. Were we born to love each other?

Well how to start? I guess I have to admit the reason I see things differently to a lot of people these days. [We] were born and brought up in the middle of the Scottish highlands, so our life was not so surrounded by a commercial world. The picture below really is the whole village, so when we started into a relationship together it became increasingly difficult to hide away from being found out.

So how long have I loved my brother? Well the truth be said, I have always been close to [him] for as far as I can remember, but just after joining high school I started seeing and feeling things that I had never noticed before, simple things like how he would always be the first to take my sister out for a while etc. So you are aware, my sister has cerebral palsy, so she wasn’t able to get out easily by herself. I started noticing the real caring nature that my brother had, the love he had for life, no matter how sick he got himself, I just felt so safe and warm in his presence.

She explains that her husband has had ill health all of this life, sometimes very serious illnesses, and they expect him to die of one of them.

Even though I have seen [him] get so ill through the years, it has never stopped me from loving him for the man he is. Yeah I guess we started our relationship early on in life, and we hide it well for 4 years before we got found out by mum and dad. What a shocker that was, there we were hiding away, and we made the terrible mistake of falling asleep. Mum and dad came back and found us both naked, asleep and well how to put this…… intimately bonded. So there really was no way we could hide our relationship any more. Like everyone else it caused a lot of problems, arguments etc and it came so close to breaking not only us as a couple, but as a family too. Eventually mum and dad realised that we had been together as a couple a long time and instead of trying to destroy what we had, they helped build us to the couple we are now.

That is the best approach. Kudos to her parents.

They gave us our own room while [he] went to university, they supported the times when he got ill etc, but we knew we wouldn’t be able to hide away from the village forever, so eventually we moved to Edinburgh and set up home together, and [he] was able to start his career helping others.

She goes on to detail the very admirable work that he does; she is essentially his personal assistant.

Now who couldn’t fall for someone with such a caring and loving heart like that?

So now we have been ‘officially’ a couple for 20 years, by that I mean since we got caught out, even though we have loved each other a lot longer. It hasn’t come without costs though. We had to move to a city even though we both hate them, we have lost a brother because of sibling jealousy, You get the picture.

So….

Have I ever been out with anyone else? NO.

Have I ever wanted to be with anyone other than my brother? NO

My brother…really is the only man I have ever been with and ever want to be with, I simply can’t be without my darling brother. To me though he isn’t my brother now, he is my husband, and always will be. I will be there every time he gets ill, I will stand by his side through all the stresses and strains of his work, and hospital life, and why? Simple….. I love him with all I am and ever will be, what better reason is there than that.

So back to the original question, was I born to love my brother? Oh yes!!! And I know he was born to love me too. Maybe you will not agree with this, but this is what I believe.

In what could be a case of Genetic Sexual Attraction, this woman writes from Ireland that she is in love with her uncle, with whom she has a daughter. She met her uncle after her mother died.

…it moved to sex within months but that freaked both of us out and we fought against this thing for a while before waking up to the fact that it was making us unhappy…We have tried living together and living apart but its like being half of a whole and this year we finally said enough and moved away. we now have a home for ourselves and our daughter and I feel like finally things are normal and good

In another posting, she wrties…

At the end of the day I love [my uncle] and he loves me. we have a child together, live together years, share a bed, if I need anything for [our daughter] or for me he will do his best to see he gets it for us with God's help, if he is ill or anything I am there and he is there for me, we do all the same things lovers do in the system but we can't wed seems mad to me that 2 adults knowing what love is and who they love cannot make this love legal before God and man when any couple who just met half a day ago in Vegas can go get hitched to each other in some love chapel

It suks that marriage can be denied anyone for no good reason by someone else rejecting the life choices and lifestyle and LOVE those two people have together.

She concludes that entry…

Ultimately…we will do what we need to do, and change our lives countless times if it means we are together but also ultimately it would be nice to have it accepted that what we feel and what we do in bed and out of it is our own choice as adults. Love is love and hate should have no part of that experience we should get the chance to be a family in the sight of God

Of their child, she writes in another message…

we have a child aged 3 she is still too young to explain anything much too yet but she sees us together and she knows how loved she is and I hope she knows how much I love [my uncle] and he loves me so the way I see this is ....... either we will do a good enough job of explaining our love for each other by living it day by day or we wont . I am hoping she will " get " it

Finally, this comes from a man…

After a 7 year marriage, I became a single father of a 7 year old boy and a 5 year old girl. I raised them the best I could....I helped with homework, went to ballet and piano recitals, put food on the table and clean clothes on their backs. There was no other family for a support system. The three of us made it through the chicken pox, bicycle wrecks, the talk, driving lessons, high school, and puppy love. I didn't date at all until my youngest went away to college. I didn't click with anyone and went on a lot of first dates and not many second ones.....just didn't have the desire. I was alone for the first time in my life and threw myself into my work. I started a new business and went to see the kids at their colleges regularly. My son graduated and landed a good job. He now lives half way around the world with his new wife.

[My daughter] graduated from college and works as a manager for a big box chain electronics store.

Both children had a very normal childhood and are very well adjusted.

Four years ago, [my daughter] got engaged to be married to a man she had dated for about a year. We planned the wedding of her dreams. About a month before the wedding day, she and I were talking about the final wedding preparations and she told me she didn't want to get married. I, of course, supported her decision.

She wanted to move to the town where I was and she was able to get transfered and keep her job. She moved in with me (had her on part of the house) and she seemed happier than ever. One night, she crawled in bed with me like she did as a child when she was scared. After that night she would sleep in my bed a couple of nights a week. One morning, I woke up to the feeling of her hand on me "there" and I had wood. I jumped out of bed and locked myself in the bathroom......I felt so wrong.

I couldn't look her in the eyes for days. The next time she came to bed with me, I put on sweat pants. The next morning, I woke up very early and left the house without a word. That night, [she] came to my bed again straight from the shower.....she cuddled up next to me like she never had before and again, put her hand "there". I didn't stop her. The next day I felt so guilty. She came to my shop and we talked in the office. She kept telling me that she loved me like she could love no one else and wanted to be more than my daughter. I refused to listen and went back to work. At dinner that night she was insistant on talking about us. I refused her for 4 months....she didn't let up. One night, I came home from work very late. She was in a very sexy nighty and had a bath drawn for me in the big claw foot tub I had just installed in the house a few days before. I gave in. I felt her love was pure and I really love her too....more than a daughter.

We have lived as a couple for 3 years. It hasn't always been easy, she is the backbone of our relationship. Each time I freeked out, she would talk me through it. Now, it feels normal. There is 22 years difference in our ages. We have had a few awkward moments, but we have gotten through them together.

We now are just a normal couple.....we go out to dinner, we get groceries, we just finished remodeling the entire house ourselves, and we work in the yard.....just a normal couple.

These people are all in loving, lasting relationships. A brother and sister, an uncle and niece, a father and a daughter, all of them love each other, make love, have sex, whatever you want to call it. They care for each other and look after each other. They are sharing their lives and should not be denied their rights just because of who they love. They should not have to hide. They should not be denied their right to marry, if that is what they want. They could be your neighbors, your co-workers. Isn't it ridiculous that there are supposedly free and progressive countries where they could be thrown in prison for loving each other, in addition to being denied their right to marry? This is why this blog exists: every adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults.

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Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,Ireland,love,siblings,UK,uncle-niece

Is Florida Prosecuting People for Consensual Sex?

Unfortunately, we are given the name of the alleged "criminal" which is probably why we're not given the age of the supposed "victim" because it would be considered identifying her.

From marconews.com comes this terse report, lacking enough information...

A 20-year-old North Naples man is accused of incest after a female relative became pregnant.

 Notice the charge is "incest," not sexual assault, not statutory rape.

Family members called deputies Tuesday after finding a positive pregnancy test in the alleged victim's sock drawer, according to an arrest report.

Family members called police. Not the supposed victim. Either the supposed victim didn't complain to them, or they only cared once she became pregnant. My guess is that she never complained to them.

She told deputies she had sex with Anthony Alan Larde, 20, about five times, a report said.

She said they "had sex." Notice she didn't say she was raped.

Larde told investigators he did have sex with the relative but added that "it was her idea," the report said.

Rapists say that, too, so that isn't relevant, other than the fact that if that is true and if this was indeed consensual, it makes it even more ridiculous that he's been arrested.

Reports did not indicate the relationship between the 20-year-old and the alleged victim, whose age was redacted.

Wouldn't the police have noted she was underage if she was? In Florida, the ange of consent is 18, but a person 23 years of age or younger can legally have sex with a complete stranger who is 16 or older. If they are of legal ages, his being arrested and her not could be yet another example of the stupid idea that young women do not enjoy sex.

So what do we likely have here? Two people enjoying sex  with each other, perhaps even lovemaking, if they are in love. Why is anyone interfering in their relationship? Why should he be prosecuted? If they want to have sex, if they want to be together, if they want to get married... they should be allowed to do all of those things. It is time for Florida authorities to get on the right side of history and stay out of out bedrooms!

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Posted in: breaking up homes,brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,Florida,incest,lack of equality harms,law,love,myths,pregnancy,prejudice,prosecution,uncle-niece

The State of Georgia Still Arresting Consenting Adults

According to Sarah Bakhtiari, reporting at norcross.patch.com...

Gwinnett County Police arrested an uncle and nephew on incest charges early Friday at a business in an unincorporated area between Norcross and Peachtree Corners.

Around 3 a.m. Aug. 17, a security guard called authorities to report that two people had entered a semi-trailer behind a business on the 6400 block of Atlantic Boulevard near Jimmy Carter Boulevard.

According to the police report, officers made demands for the people to exit the trailer, and they did so without incident. Police immediately arrested the two for loitering and prowling since they "had no reason to be at the closed business."

If they owned the trailer and were inside the trailer what was the problem, really?

Police noted that at first, the two people appeared to be a woman in her early 20s and a middle-aged man. After further investigation and questioning, it turned out the woman was actually a 21-year-old male from Gainesville. He had been taking hormones since he was 19 that caused him to grow breasts and develop feminine features.

So the younger person is a transgender female. If she identifies as such, the police and journalists should refer to her as female, not in male terms.

The two also told police that they were uncle and nephew, and they had been involved sexually for about two years. The nephew told their family that he was gay, said the uncle, who's a 37-year-old Snellville resident. When his nephew started gaining female features, the uncle asked him about becoming sexually involved together.

Why is this relevant to the police? They are consenting adults.

Police asked if they performed any sexual acts in the trailer, and the uncle said they only cuddled and kissed. The nephew, however, told the officer that he performed oral sex, but it was consensual and not forced.

Note: It is OK to lie to counter unjust laws.

The two were arrested on charges of incest and loitering and prowling. They were admitted into the Gwinnett County jail and remained there as of early Tuesday morning, according to the Gwinnett Docket Book.

Why is incest a crime in this instance? They are consenting adults. The article didn't make it clear if they are biologically related or related by marriage, but it doesn't matter. "Loitering" is really a charge used to punish people for having sex or looking for sex in publicly shared places (like public restrooms) often because of prejudice against their sexuality makes it risky to be seen together at home, but they went inside the trailer. "Prowling" is a charge meant to be applied to burglars. They didn't steal anything. This looks like it just harassment of consenting adults for no good reason. If they actually didn't own the trailer, there should be nothing more than a trespassing charge.

There were comments, of course...

Diana... 

Call me a prude but ewwwww.

Don't do it if you don't want to. Problem solved!

SB...

I am just stunned and shocked ...this is going to be devestating to that family...So happy they are busted...he's probably been molesting him since he was a small boy...so so sad

Doesn't sound like a pedophile situation, but of course if someone isn't like SB, they must be a pedophile, right?

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Posted in: consanguineous,Georgia,incest,lack of equality harms,law,LGBT,prejudice,uncle-niece