The Royal We

A discussion is still underway at theroyalforums.com about "Incestuous Royal Marriages." This blog has noted such things before.
Kataryn started off the discussion YEARS ago...

Legally Catherine of Aragon was married incestually because she as widow of one brother married the other after the first hausband's death.

That's not considered incest in most definitions.

But that's just a formality. History has shown that Royal families did not hesitate to form very close bonds between them. While a marriage of cousin and cousin happened quite often, marriages between unles and nieces are rare - but they happened, too.

One example is the marriage of Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg to Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Marie's mother Antoinette of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld was the sister of the groom.

Then there are the three uncle-niece marriages of the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs:

- Philipp II. married Anna of Austria, the daughter of his sister Marie.

- Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich married Maria Anna of Bavaria, daughter of his sister Anna of Austria.

- Philipp IV. married Marianna of Austria, daughter of his sister Maria Anna.

As you can see, the last three uncle-niece-marriages happened in the House of Habsburg between 1550 and 1660 in the direct line leading to Philipp IV. of Spain and his wife Marianna of Austria. Their child is the sad, sick Don Carlos of Schillerian fame...

Not 100 years later, the House of Habsburg ended in the male line. But of course the marriage of Maria Theresia of Austria to Francis Stephan of Lorraine brought new blood into the family..

As I understand it, uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some places in deference to religious traditions.



Princess Agnes added...

In Portugal there are two cases of marriages to uncles, regarding the only female monarchs.

D. Maria I (1734-1816) married her uncle, Pedro de Bragança (1717-1786) who became D. Pedro III, in 1760.

Her greatgranddaughter, D. Maria II (1819-1853) married her uncle D. Miguel (1802-1866) by proxy in 1826. This marriage was annulled in 1834. This annullment had nothing to do with the close relationship between the spouses (there had been a papal dispensation) but because it had been contracted in an attempt to end the liberal civil wars. D. Miguel didn't fulfill his part of the agreement (he was on the absolutist side) and the marriage ended being annulled. D. Maria II later married Auguste of Beauharnais in 1834 by proxy and personnally in January 1835, although he died in March that year.

She finally married Fernando de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1816-1885) in 1836. After the birth of their first son, he became D. Fernando II.

MAfan added more about Spain...

In the Spanish Royal Family it appears that such marriages were a sort of habit:

- in 1779 Infanta Maria Amalia (Carlos IV's daughter) married her paternal uncle Infante Antonio;
- in 1816 King Fernando VII married his niece Infanta Isabel of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1829 again King Fernando VII married his niece Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Maria Isabel);
- in 1816 Infante Carlos married to his niece Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1838 Infante Carlos married to his niece and sister-in-law Infanta Teresa of Portugal (another daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina, and sister of the above mentioned Isabel and Maria Francisca);
- in 1819 Infante Francisco de Paula (brother of Fernando VII) married to his niece Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Isabel, and sister of the above mentioned Maria Cristina; later Francisco de Paula and Luisa's son, Francisco de Asis, married to Fernando and Maria Cristina's daughter, Queen Isabel II).

Several other descendants of these couples married among themselves.

Alison20 was confused...

It has always seemed very strange to me that no-one in the Spanish RF realised a very basic biological fact, which was that marrying close relatives was not a healthy practice. This was somethat that was understood by even the most isolated and 'primitive' human societies - who made it 'taboo' for a woman to marry a man from her own family group. Perhaps they were so blinded by their belief in their superiority that they didn't think this basic fact applied to them! :-)

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. Not all societies have had a taboo preventing consanguineous marriages. The ones who did were likely more concerned about trading their daughters away as bargaining chips. In other words, the prohibitions were for the same reason the royal families would engage in consanguineous marriages: power. Either gaining it or retaining it.

Grandduchess24 contributed some information about the Norwegian royals...

Queen maud of Norway married her maternal cousin, haakon VII since they are both grandchildren of King Christian IX of Denmark

Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine married her maternal cousin prince Heinrich of Prussia and had 3 sons, is that right?

Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg and Gotha had married firstly her cousin grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse and had a daughter by him but died young, she secondly married her maternal cousin grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich and had two girls and one boy.

King carol II of Romania married his cousin Helen

Marc23 added about the Portugal royals...

And her son Pedro,"product" of uncle and niece was married to his own aunt Maria Francisca who was a sister to his mother and the other niece of his father,who was at the same time his grandfathers younger brother!

pacomartin gave quite a list...

Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts
King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria and Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.
 
Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

theresa_225 offered...

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).

Noble Consort Ming...

I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).

Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

Meraude...

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

norenxaq noted...

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

Keeping it in the caste?

The royals in Egypt, Hawaii, and elsewhere are also mentioned.

Literally all over the world, it has been common for close relatives to marry. In the US, there is a ridiculous stereotype that assigns such marriages or sexual relationships to rural southerners. But the fact is, wealthy people urban residents, and people of any socioeconomic background experience consanguinamory.

It is ridiculous that any US state has restrictions on the consanguineous freedom to marry, let alone laws criminalizing sex between first cousins. This is just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality nationwide. Adults in love who want to marry shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out of they can marry where they live, or if it would be criminal for them to live together if they want to move to another state.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,cousins,Europe,incest,India,siblings,Spain,UK,uncle-niece

The Royal We

A discussion is still underway at theroyalforums.com about "Incestuous Royal Marriages." This blog has noted such things before.
Kataryn started off the discussion YEARS ago...

Legally Catherine of Aragon was married incestually because she as widow of one brother married the other after the first hausband's death.

That's not considered incest in most definitions.

But that's just a formality. History has shown that Royal families did not hesitate to form very close bonds between them. While a marriage of cousin and cousin happened quite often, marriages between unles and nieces are rare - but they happened, too.

One example is the marriage of Antoinette Marie of Wuerttemberg to Ernst I. of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Marie's mother Antoinette of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld was the sister of the groom.

Then there are the three uncle-niece marriages of the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs:

- Philipp II. married Anna of Austria, the daughter of his sister Marie.

- Archduke Charles II of Austria-Innerösterreich married Maria Anna of Bavaria, daughter of his sister Anna of Austria.

- Philipp IV. married Marianna of Austria, daughter of his sister Maria Anna.

As you can see, the last three uncle-niece-marriages happened in the House of Habsburg between 1550 and 1660 in the direct line leading to Philipp IV. of Spain and his wife Marianna of Austria. Their child is the sad, sick Don Carlos of Schillerian fame...

Not 100 years later, the House of Habsburg ended in the male line. But of course the marriage of Maria Theresia of Austria to Francis Stephan of Lorraine brought new blood into the family..

As I understand it, uncle-niece marriages are allowed in some places in deference to religious traditions.



Princess Agnes added...

In Portugal there are two cases of marriages to uncles, regarding the only female monarchs.

D. Maria I (1734-1816) married her uncle, Pedro de Bragança (1717-1786) who became D. Pedro III, in 1760.

Her greatgranddaughter, D. Maria II (1819-1853) married her uncle D. Miguel (1802-1866) by proxy in 1826. This marriage was annulled in 1834. This annullment had nothing to do with the close relationship between the spouses (there had been a papal dispensation) but because it had been contracted in an attempt to end the liberal civil wars. D. Miguel didn't fulfill his part of the agreement (he was on the absolutist side) and the marriage ended being annulled. D. Maria II later married Auguste of Beauharnais in 1834 by proxy and personnally in January 1835, although he died in March that year.

She finally married Fernando de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (1816-1885) in 1836. After the birth of their first son, he became D. Fernando II.

MAfan added more about Spain...

In the Spanish Royal Family it appears that such marriages were a sort of habit:

- in 1779 Infanta Maria Amalia (Carlos IV's daughter) married her paternal uncle Infante Antonio;
- in 1816 King Fernando VII married his niece Infanta Isabel of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1829 again King Fernando VII married his niece Princess Maria Cristina of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Maria Isabel);
- in 1816 Infante Carlos married to his niece Infanta Maria Francisca of Portugal (daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina);
- in 1838 Infante Carlos married to his niece and sister-in-law Infanta Teresa of Portugal (another daughter of his sister Carlota Joaquina, and sister of the above mentioned Isabel and Maria Francisca);
- in 1819 Infante Francisco de Paula (brother of Fernando VII) married to his niece Princess Luisa Carlotta of the Two Sicilies (daughter of his sister Isabel, and sister of the above mentioned Maria Cristina; later Francisco de Paula and Luisa's son, Francisco de Asis, married to Fernando and Maria Cristina's daughter, Queen Isabel II).

Several other descendants of these couples married among themselves.

Alison20 was confused...

It has always seemed very strange to me that no-one in the Spanish RF realised a very basic biological fact, which was that marrying close relatives was not a healthy practice. This was somethat that was understood by even the most isolated and 'primitive' human societies - who made it 'taboo' for a woman to marry a man from her own family group. Perhaps they were so blinded by their belief in their superiority that they didn't think this basic fact applied to them! :-)

Most children born to close relatives are healthy. Not all societies have had a taboo preventing consanguineous marriages. The ones who did were likely more concerned about trading their daughters away as bargaining chips. In other words, the prohibitions were for the same reason the royal families would engage in consanguineous marriages: power. Either gaining it or retaining it.

Grandduchess24 contributed some information about the Norwegian royals...

Queen maud of Norway married her maternal cousin, haakon VII since they are both grandchildren of King Christian IX of Denmark

Princess Irene of Hesse and by Rhine married her maternal cousin prince Heinrich of Prussia and had 3 sons, is that right?

Princess Victoria Melita of Saxe Coburg and Gotha had married firstly her cousin grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse and had a daughter by him but died young, she secondly married her maternal cousin grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich and had two girls and one boy.

King carol II of Romania married his cousin Helen

Marc23 added about the Portugal royals...

And her son Pedro,"product" of uncle and niece was married to his own aunt Maria Francisca who was a sister to his mother and the other niece of his father,who was at the same time his grandfathers younger brother!

pacomartin gave quite a list...

Hanoverian familial relationships with consorts
King George I married his firstcousin
King George II married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Prince of Wales Frederick married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
King George III married his 3rd cousin
King George IV married his firstcousin
King William IV married his 3rd cousin 1 generation removed
Victoria and Edward Augustus were 3rd cousins 1 generation removed
Queen Victoria married her first cousin
King Edward VII married his 3rd cousin
King George V married his 2nd cousin 1 generation removed
King Edward VIII married "Wallis, Duchess of Windsor" after he abdicated (no known relationship)
King George VI married his 13th cousin (pretty distant for two English people) They were both descended from Henry VII.
 
Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are:
2nd cousins one generation removed through common descent from King Christian IX of Denmark (died 1906) 3rd cousins through common descent from Queen Victoria (died 1901) and Prince Albert

Prince Charles is said to have proposed to his 2nd cousin, but when she turned him down he proposed to Diana (his 7th cousin once removed).

Queen Elizabeth's consanguinity index is almost zero because of the lack of any close relationship between her parents. Prince Charles is 2.03%, or about a third of the child of first cousins. Prince William and Harry have almost 0%.

theresa_225 offered...

Is Joseph, Prince of Beira and Benedita, Princess of Brazil mentioned yet? José was the son of Maria I of Portugal and her uncle, Peter III. Benedita is his aunt, being the daughter of José I of Portugal and Infanta Mariana Victoria of Spain (the parents of Maria I of Portugal).

Noble Consort Ming...

I think the Thai royal family has not been mentioned. Traditionally Thai kings had many wives including their sisters and half sisters. For example, King Rama V's four queen consorts were all his half-sisters(he had many other wives and concubines besides them as well).

Also, Kind Leonidas of Sparta and his wife Gorgo were uncle and niece. Many sources call her his half-niece(if there is such a term) since she was the daughter of his half brother.

Meraude...

The Roman emperor Claudius married his niece Agrippina the Younger, daughter of his brother Germanicus. She was the sister of emperor Caligula and there were rumours that he had an incestrous relationship with his sister Julia Drusilla, if not all of his sisters, but there is no known facts whether it's true or not.

Emperor Tiberius married his stepsister Julia the Elder, and was later adopted by Julia's father emperor Augustus, so the marriage could be seen as incestrous. The same could be said for the marriage between emperor Nero and his first wife, Claudia Octavia, the daugher of his step- and adoptive father, emperor Claudius.

norenxaq noted...

on a related theme, there was a dynasty in central india called the ikshvaku (c.200-300 AD) whose kings married their aunts

Keeping it in the caste?

The royals in Egypt, Hawaii, and elsewhere are also mentioned.

Literally all over the world, it has been common for close relatives to marry. In the US, there is a ridiculous stereotype that assigns such marriages or sexual relationships to rural southerners. But the fact is, wealthy people urban residents, and people of any socioeconomic background experience consanguinamory.

It is ridiculous that any US state has restrictions on the consanguineous freedom to marry, let alone laws criminalizing sex between first cousins. This is just one of many reasons we need full marriage equality nationwide. Adults in love who want to marry shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out of they can marry where they live, or if it would be criminal for them to live together if they want to move to another state.

Read more »

Posted in: aunt-nephew,brother-sister,consanguineous,cousins,Europe,incest,India,siblings,Spain,UK,uncle-niece

Having What the Royals Had

David Dobbs wrote at National Geographic about consanguineous sex among royals.

Royal incest, notes historian Joanne Carando, was "not only accepted but even encouraged" in Hawaii as an exclusive royal privilege.

In fact, while virtually every culture in recorded history has held sibling or parent-child couplings taboo, royalty have been exempted in many societies, including ancient Egypt, Inca Peru, and, at times, Central Africa, Mexico, and Thailand. And while royal families in Europe avoided sibling incest, many, including the Hohenzollerns of Prussia, the Bourbons of France, and the British royal family, often married cousins. The Spanish Habsburgs, who ruled for nearly 200 years, frequently married among close relatives.

Sadly, those who do as the royals did are now often prosecuted and treated as second class citizens.

He has the obligatory “this can mess up your genes” talk included, noting…

Siblings share half their genes on average, as do parents and offspring. First cousins' genomes overlap 12.5 percent. Matings between close relatives can raise the danger that harmful recessive genes, especially if combined repeatedly through generations, will match up in the offspring, leading to elevated chances of health or developmental problems—perhaps Tut's partially cleft palate and congenitally deformed foot or Charles's small stature and impotence.

Any child can have health problems. But what doesn’t get talked about enough are the potential positives. Dobbs, thankfully, writes…

And the hazards, while real, are not absolute. Even the high rates of genetic overlap generated in the offspring of sibling unions, for instance, can create more healthy children than sick ones.

Thank you.

Yet affection sometimes drives these bonds. Bingham learned that even after King Kamehameha III of Hawaii accepted Christian rule, he slept for several years with his sister, Princess Nahi'ena'ena—pleasing their elders but disturbing the missionaries. They did it, says historian Carando, because they loved each other.

Imagine that. Some family members love each other in ways that include sexual. That certainly doesn’t fit the bigoted stereotype of “rape and incest.” Nonrelatives can rape or sexually abuse, and relatives can lovingly engage in consensual sex. The problem isn't consanguineous sex; the problem is rape and abuse. Loving, consensual, consanguineous sex should not be kept buried with the royals of the past. It should be brought into the open and enjoyed by all who want to share the tradition old as time.

Read more »

Posted in: Africa,children,consanguineous,Europe,Hawaii,Latin America,science

Having What the Royals Had

David Dobbs wrote at National Geographic about consanguineous sex among royals.

Royal incest, notes historian Joanne Carando, was "not only accepted but even encouraged" in Hawaii as an exclusive royal privilege.

In fact, while virtually every culture in recorded history has held sibling or parent-child couplings taboo, royalty have been exempted in many societies, including ancient Egypt, Inca Peru, and, at times, Central Africa, Mexico, and Thailand. And while royal families in Europe avoided sibling incest, many, including the Hohenzollerns of Prussia, the Bourbons of France, and the British royal family, often married cousins. The Spanish Habsburgs, who ruled for nearly 200 years, frequently married among close relatives.

Sadly, those who do as the royals did are now often prosecuted and treated as second class citizens.

He has the obligatory “this can mess up your genes” talk included, noting…

Siblings share half their genes on average, as do parents and offspring. First cousins' genomes overlap 12.5 percent. Matings between close relatives can raise the danger that harmful recessive genes, especially if combined repeatedly through generations, will match up in the offspring, leading to elevated chances of health or developmental problems—perhaps Tut's partially cleft palate and congenitally deformed foot or Charles's small stature and impotence.

Any child can have health problems. But what doesn’t get talked about enough are the potential positives. Dobbs, thankfully, writes…

And the hazards, while real, are not absolute. Even the high rates of genetic overlap generated in the offspring of sibling unions, for instance, can create more healthy children than sick ones.

Thank you.

Yet affection sometimes drives these bonds. Bingham learned that even after King Kamehameha III of Hawaii accepted Christian rule, he slept for several years with his sister, Princess Nahi'ena'ena—pleasing their elders but disturbing the missionaries. They did it, says historian Carando, because they loved each other.

Imagine that. Some family members love each other in ways that include sexual. That certainly doesn’t fit the bigoted stereotype of “rape and incest.” Nonrelatives can rape or sexually abuse, and relatives can lovingly engage in consensual sex. The problem isn't consanguineous sex; the problem is rape and abuse. Loving, consensual, consanguineous sex should not be kept buried with the royals of the past. It should be brought into the open and enjoyed by all who want to share the tradition old as time.

Read more »

Posted in: Africa,children,consanguineous,Europe,Hawaii,Latin America,science

France Needs to Keep Evolving

Here's an example of why France, which recently embraced the limited same-gender freedom to marry, needs to evolve to full marriage equality sooner rather than later.

Two adults, in the 40s, are being denied their right to marry.

Why?

Because many years ago, she was married to his father.

It doesn't matter that the hopeful groom was well into adulthood when she married his father.

It doesn't matter that the marriage only lasted three years.

It doesn't matter that she was left by that husband.

It doesn't matter that they are close in age.

The ridiculous laws say she is a stepmother to him, that such a relationship means they are to be denied their right to marry, and even the President can't do anything about it until the law is changed.

France has been friendly to consanguinamory, but when it comes to marriage, even though there is no blood relation, the discrimination continues.

As the law stands now, this couple can only marry if the hopeful groom's father dies/

How stupid is that?

Liberty? Equality? Hardly!

Lawmakers in France and just about every other country need to remedy the inequalities and inconsistencies sooner rather than later. It is simple, really. Rather than quibbling over which adults get which rights, just adopt a blanket approach: an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

By the way, the article gives no indication of what the hopeful groom's father thinks of all of this. At some time, he wanted this woman. Why is it surprising his son wants her now?

Read more »

Posted in: Europe,France,freedom to marry,incest,lack of equality harms,law,mother-son

France Needs to Keep Evolving

Here's an example of why France, which recently embraced the limited same-gender freedom to marry, needs to evolve to full marriage equality sooner rather than later.

Two adults, in the 40s, are being denied their right to marry.

Why?

Because many years ago, she was married to his father.

It doesn't matter that the hopeful groom was well into adulthood when she married his father.

It doesn't matter that the marriage only lasted three years.

It doesn't matter that she was left by that husband.

It doesn't matter that they are close in age.

The ridiculous laws say she is a stepmother to him, that such a relationship means they are to be denied their right to marry, and even the President can't do anything about it until the law is changed.

France has been friendly to consanguinamory, but when it comes to marriage, even though there is no blood relation, the discrimination continues.

As the law stands now, this couple can only marry if the hopeful groom's father dies/

How stupid is that?

Liberty? Equality? Hardly!

Lawmakers in France and just about every other country need to remedy the inequalities and inconsistencies sooner rather than later. It is simple, really. Rather than quibbling over which adults get which rights, just adopt a blanket approach: an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

By the way, the article gives no indication of what the hopeful groom's father thinks of all of this. At some time, he wanted this woman. Why is it surprising his son wants her now?

Read more »

Posted in: Europe,France,freedom to marry,incest,lack of equality harms,law,mother-son

We're Closely Related But That May Be Changing

Steve Jones reports at telegraph.co.uk on the reality of the human race, and how closely we're related in some cases, but that the trend is towards an increase in genetic diversity.

Islanders, from the Orkneys to the Adriatic (together with natives of the Americas, which was, until Columbus, the biggest and most isolated island in the world) have lots of such things – evidence of plenty of sex within the family, no doubt because no other option was available.

Across the world, such patterns match those of surnames. A fifth of all Chinese – three hundred million people – share three names, evidence of how connected lineages have become since the titles first appeared millennia ago. In France, the average number of bearers of a particular surname is 17, and in Britain it is 28. In China, the number is 70,000 (which almost reconciles me to being a Jones).

He goes on to discuss genetic diseases. 

A new survey of this kind involved 5,000 random (and supposedly unrelated) Europeans. It revealed hundreds of thousands of previously unknown family links among them, even if one goes back no further than ninth cousins (whose shared ancestor lived at around the time of the French Revolution).

There were, for example, around 30,000 predicted fourth-cousin pairs (a shared great-great-great-grandparent). As a result, taking all family ties into account, the person you sat next to on the bus this morning is, on average, likely to be something like your sixth cousin, which means that the two of you probably share at least one ancestor from the time of the Paris Commune.

You don't have to go too far back in the family tree to find close relatives.

Finns (who have a history separate from that of the rest of the continent) and Ashkenazi Jews are even more likely to have close family ties; while in parts of Pakistan, the average relationship of two random people is that of second cousins, with their common ancestor alive at the time of the fall of France.

Sir Thomas Beecham (had he ever met a Pakistani, or even a Welshman) would no doubt have been outraged. But he can begin to cheer up, for in the Western world incest (or at least inbreeding) is on the way out. The proportion of people who identify themselves as of mixed race in Britain has almost doubled in the past couple of decades, and one household in eight contains members of different ethnic origins. For about half of the nation’s children with an Afro-Caribbean parent, the other parent is white, so that on these islands the pedigrees of two continents will soon merge. The process actually began long ago: seven Yorkshiremen bear the surname Revis (after Rievaulx Abbey in the county). Each carries a Y chromosome that came from West Africa, perhaps in the 18th century. It is now being joined by millions more.

Just think... there used to be people who prohibited interracial dating, marriages, and parenting, but children of interracial parents were actually the least likely to have parents who were committing "incest."

His overall point is that for much of human history, people in various regions have been closely related, but now with increased mobility that is changing. I'll point out, though, that studies still show that most people are attracted to people who look like them and that that the increased mobility is one of the factors that is going to lead to an increase in cases of Genetic Sexual Attraction. In the past, when a performing artists, sailor, soldier, other traveling professional, or a tourist became a party to a conception, there was little chance the parent would see their progeny, and even less of a chance that other children of parent would meet up with that progeny. Same thing when divorcing parents have moved thousands of miles apart and had children with new spouses. That's not so anymore.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,cousins,Europe,GSA,human origins,incest,science

We're Closely Related But That May Be Changing

Steve Jones reports at telegraph.co.uk on the reality of the human race, and how closely we're related in some cases, but that the trend is towards an increase in genetic diversity.

Islanders, from the Orkneys to the Adriatic (together with natives of the Americas, which was, until Columbus, the biggest and most isolated island in the world) have lots of such things – evidence of plenty of sex within the family, no doubt because no other option was available.

Across the world, such patterns match those of surnames. A fifth of all Chinese – three hundred million people – share three names, evidence of how connected lineages have become since the titles first appeared millennia ago. In France, the average number of bearers of a particular surname is 17, and in Britain it is 28. In China, the number is 70,000 (which almost reconciles me to being a Jones).

He goes on to discuss genetic diseases. 

A new survey of this kind involved 5,000 random (and supposedly unrelated) Europeans. It revealed hundreds of thousands of previously unknown family links among them, even if one goes back no further than ninth cousins (whose shared ancestor lived at around the time of the French Revolution).

There were, for example, around 30,000 predicted fourth-cousin pairs (a shared great-great-great-grandparent). As a result, taking all family ties into account, the person you sat next to on the bus this morning is, on average, likely to be something like your sixth cousin, which means that the two of you probably share at least one ancestor from the time of the Paris Commune.

You don't have to go too far back in the family tree to find close relatives.

Finns (who have a history separate from that of the rest of the continent) and Ashkenazi Jews are even more likely to have close family ties; while in parts of Pakistan, the average relationship of two random people is that of second cousins, with their common ancestor alive at the time of the fall of France.

Sir Thomas Beecham (had he ever met a Pakistani, or even a Welshman) would no doubt have been outraged. But he can begin to cheer up, for in the Western world incest (or at least inbreeding) is on the way out. The proportion of people who identify themselves as of mixed race in Britain has almost doubled in the past couple of decades, and one household in eight contains members of different ethnic origins. For about half of the nation’s children with an Afro-Caribbean parent, the other parent is white, so that on these islands the pedigrees of two continents will soon merge. The process actually began long ago: seven Yorkshiremen bear the surname Revis (after Rievaulx Abbey in the county). Each carries a Y chromosome that came from West Africa, perhaps in the 18th century. It is now being joined by millions more.

Just think... there used to be people who prohibited interracial dating, marriages, and parenting, but children of interracial parents were actually the least likely to have parents who were committing "incest."

His overall point is that for much of human history, people in various regions have been closely related, but now with increased mobility that is changing. I'll point out, though, that studies still show that most people are attracted to people who look like them and that that the increased mobility is one of the factors that is going to lead to an increase in cases of Genetic Sexual Attraction. In the past, when a performing artists, sailor, soldier, other traveling professional, or a tourist became a party to a conception, there was little chance the parent would see their progeny, and even less of a chance that other children of parent would meet up with that progeny. Same thing when divorcing parents have moved thousands of miles apart and had children with new spouses. That's not so anymore.

Read more »

Posted in: consanguineous,cousins,Europe,GSA,human origins,incest,science

Polish Producer Michal Kwiecinsk Is Shameless

So much to blog, so little time. Back in the middle of the month, timesofindia.com had words from the producer of a film of interest to this blog...

Film audiences around the world are growing up and getting ready to accept bolder and controversial themes. But there are still areas that remain taboo, felt Polish producer Michal Kwiecinski. It's just as difficult to make a film on a subject like incest in Poland as in India, he said. Kwiecinski's film 'Shameless', directed by Filip Marczweski, revolves around the "sinful love" between a brother and a sister. It has made waves at several festivals around the world and is now being screened at the 18th Kolkata International Film Festival (KIFF).

Sinful?

'Shameless' is the story of an 18-year-old boy in love with his 28-year-old sister. The latter is in a relationship with the boss of a local Neo-Nazi unit. But she craves for her brother's love.

Sadly, there are people who'd have no objection to her relationship with a Neo-Nazi, but would condemn her for loving her brother.

The film has certain explicit sexual scenes that had to be censored for the screen version. But the DVD version of the film has them. As many as 50,000 DVDs of 'Shameless' have been sold so far. 

I'd like to watch it here in the US. Streaming? Or is there a DVD that will work here?

"Essentially, both Filip and I were keen on making a film on incest. It's set in a typical Polish town and the idea was to convey the message that these things are a part of our lives, whether we admit it or not," said Kwiecinski.

He would like to see more Indian films on a subject like this, he said. "I have watched a few Bengali films, though I don't remember their titles. They seem to be making them on a small budget, unlike Bollywood films.

Hollywood needs to take an honest look at the subject.

The reaction of youngsters in India has left him enthused. "They were asking questions and differed on the subject. But they didn't seem to have written it off altogether. I am sure it happens in India," he said.

Of course it does. Also, India has more progressive laws when it comes to consanguinamory. The arts and media should explore consanguinamory and the issues around it. Here is "Shameless" at IMDb.com.

Read more »

Posted in: allies,boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,Europe,incest,India,love,media,siblings

It's Nothing New

How about a mention of literature, seeing as how you may need something to read while waiting in line to vote today? Adrian Murdoch plugged his father's new book, Gregorius: An Incestuous Saint in Medieval Europe and Beyond, which tracks the popularity of an interesting tale ...

The striking (and shocking) story of Gregorius, a child born of incest who later marries his mother, undertakes a massive penance, and eventually becomes both pope and saint, is a European theme. The apocryphal story probably came from medieval England or France, but is found in most European languages in all kinds of forms, from major literary works down to short folktales. In modern times the best known (but not the only) version is that by Thomas Mann, The Holy Sinner.

Murdoch linked to this site, which had more.

The story of the apocryphal pope and saint Gregorius was extremely popular throughout the middle ages and later in Europe and beyond. In a memorable narrative Gregorius is born from an incestuous relationship between a noble brother and sister, and is set out to sea with (unspecific) details of his origin. He is found and brought up by an abbot, but when revealed as a foundling leaves as a knight to seek his origins; he rescues his mother's land from attack, and marries her.  Consanguinamory has always been a theme in legends, mythology, folk takes, and fiction because it has always been a part of reality.

Read more »

Posted in: academia,brother-sister,consanguineous,Europe,GSA,incest,media,mother-son,religion,reunion,siblings,stigma

Denmark Party Calls For Decriminalizing Consanguinamory

From the Copenhagen Post website cphpost.dk comes this report by Ray Weaver about the position taken by the Enhedslisten politcal party to eliminate bigoted laws against consensual incest...

The recent case of a brother and sister in the city of Aarhus who said that they are in love and have a five-month-old child together has raised a national debate about sibling sex. The couple, who share the same father but have different mothers, face jail time for violating Denmark’s current statute prohibiting incest and inbreeding.

Why should their love be criminal? They should be free to be out and, if they want, to marry. Sounds like a possible case of Genetic Sexual Attraction. I don't think I'd heard about this couple before and I want to see if I can find any more information.

“It is not the government’s job to interfere in who should have children with whom,” party spokesperson Pernille Skipper told Politiken newspaper. “It is a grotesque approach to sex and families.”

Thank you! The article then takes a look at Discredited Argument #18...

The possibility of passing on genetic defects and damaging the social order have been the main reasons cited for making it illegal for siblings to have sex and produce offspring. But Niels Tommerup, a professor of genetics at the University of Copenhagen, said that mutations resulting from inbreeding can be both positive and negative.

"Our focus is always on the negative consequences like diseases and malformations," he told Information newspaper. “But positive mutations help develop the species.”

Tommerup said that mutations like those that occur due to inbreeding can be “biologically positive”.

Regardless, don't people have reproductive rights? Notice no mention is made in this article about the child having any problems. I would think they would list any problems in this report if there had been any. Most children born to close relatives are healthy.

Vagn Greve, a law professor at Copenhagen Business School, would like to see even more taboos removed. Greve said there is “no logical reason” that sex between parents and their children should be against the law.

"In my view, we should decriminalise sex between father and daughter as long as they are both adult and the relationship is voluntary,” Greve told metroXpress newspaper. “There is no reason to treat the biological family different from the social family, but the age limit should be 18 or 20-years-old.”

It is good to see people making some sense and dealing with the issue rationally, rather than with fear and ignorance.

Greve said that sex among immediate family members has been legal in countries like Spain, Italy, the Netherlands and France for 200 years, and that there is no evidence that it has damaged either families or society.

Currently, section 210 of the Danish Penal Code prohibits "sexual intercourse with a descendant" and is punishable by up to six years in prison.

According to Greve, arguments for maintaining the ban on sibling sex and sex between parents and their adult children do not hold up. He compared them to past laws that banned homosexuality and infidelity.

"These are moral questions and it is not the government’s job to interfere with the sexual relationships of adults,” he said.

Thank you! Let's keep moving towards relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality for all!

Read about people who are, or have been, in consanguinamorous relationships.

Read more »

Posted in: academia,allies,boundaries,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,Denmark,Europe,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,love,RFMA,science,siblings

Denmark Party Calls For Decriminalizing Consanguinamory

From the Copenhagen Post website cphpost.dk comes this report by Ray Weaver about the position taken by the Enhedslisten politcal party to eliminate bigoted laws against consensual incest...

The recent case of a brother and sister in the city of Aarhus who said that they are in love and have a five-month-old child together has raised a national debate about sibling sex. The couple, who share the same father but have different mothers, face jail time for violating Denmark’s current statute prohibiting incest and inbreeding.

Why should their love be criminal? They should be free to be out and, if they want, to marry. Sounds like a possible case of Genetic Sexual Attraction. I don't think I'd heard about this couple before and I want to see if I can find any more information.

“It is not the government’s job to interfere in who should have children with whom,” party spokesperson Pernille Skipper told Politiken newspaper. “It is a grotesque approach to sex and families.”

Thank you! The article then takes a look at Discredited Argument #18...

The possibility of passing on genetic defects and damaging the social order have been the main reasons cited for making it illegal for siblings to have sex and produce offspring. But Niels Tommerup, a professor of genetics at the University of Copenhagen, said that mutations resulting from inbreeding can be both positive and negative.

"Our focus is always on the negative consequences like diseases and malformations," he told Information newspaper. “But positive mutations help develop the species.”

Tommerup said that mutations like those that occur due to inbreeding can be “biologically positive”.

Regardless, don't people have reproductive rights? Notice no mention is made in this article about the child having any problems. I would think they would list any problems in this report if there had been any. Most children born to close relatives are healthy.

Vagn Greve, a law professor at Copenhagen Business School, would like to see even more taboos removed. Greve said there is “no logical reason” that sex between parents and their children should be against the law.

"In my view, we should decriminalise sex between father and daughter as long as they are both adult and the relationship is voluntary,” Greve told metroXpress newspaper. “There is no reason to treat the biological family different from the social family, but the age limit should be 18 or 20-years-old.”

It is good to see people making some sense and dealing with the issue rationally, rather than with fear and ignorance.

Greve said that sex among immediate family members has been legal in countries like Spain, Italy, the Netherlands and France for 200 years, and that there is no evidence that it has damaged either families or society.

Currently, section 210 of the Danish Penal Code prohibits "sexual intercourse with a descendant" and is punishable by up to six years in prison.

According to Greve, arguments for maintaining the ban on sibling sex and sex between parents and their adult children do not hold up. He compared them to past laws that banned homosexuality and infidelity.

"These are moral questions and it is not the government’s job to interfere with the sexual relationships of adults,” he said.

Thank you! Let's keep moving towards relationship rights for all adults, including full marriage equality for all!

Read about people who are, or have been, in consanguinamorous relationships.

Read more »

Posted in: academia,allies,boundaries,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,Denmark,Europe,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,law,love,RFMA,science,siblings