Tuesday, June 18, 2013

Chilling Effect as Film Edited to Escape Ban

I reported earlier about Kim Ki-duk's "Moebius" being held up because of "incest" scenes. Despite support for the film from other filmmakers, word is out now that the film will be edited to drop the supposedly offensive material. From globalpost.com...
South Korean filmmakers called on a government ratings' agency to lift an effective ban on the screening in the country of director Kim Ki-duk's latest film about incest.
"Moebius" received a "restricted screening" rating at the Korea Media Ratings Board (KMRB) on June 1 for including content "harmful to youth" as well as "unethical and unsocial" expressions.

The movie tells the story of a man who is raised up in a family destroyed by the father's affair and renounces the world.

Films classified for "restricted screening" can only be seen at theaters dedicated only to such films. Since South Korea does not have a single theater of that kind, the decision means Kim's new film cannot be shown in his home country.
Sounds like things need to change in Korea.


Kim said last week he has sent a letter of opinion asking the agency to reconsider the decision on June 5.
"As a filmmaker, it was inevitable to use incest as a motif of the film," he said in the letter. The scenes in question "are not focusing on the mother-son sexual intercourse but the relationship between parents," he explained.

"I think Korean adults should be given a chance to make their own judgment of my film."

They should have been. But here's what was reported at hollywoodereporter.com by Lee Hyo-won...

Kim Ki-duk has cut one minute and 20 seconds of his controversial film Moebius in order to submit it for a retrial by the Korea Media Rating Board (KMRB).
That might not sound like a lot, but consider...
In signed letter released to the press Tuesday, Kim explained that he decided to cut or modify 21 scenes that the KMRB had deemed “too problematic.” The director said he made the changes because he wanted to meet the film's previously scheduled domestic distribution date slated for September.
That's too bad.
Moebius portrays the destruction of a family as its members give into incestuous sexual desires.

So even though the portrayal was negative, it still had to be cut. Absurd.
The film, much like the director's 3-Iron (2004), proceeds without dialog and hence each and every scene is important, says the director.
“The plotline or expression of the scene may appear obscure, depending on the comprehension level of each audience member. But it is my hope that mature adult viewers would be able to discern the nuance and understand my intentions,” he said.
Sounds like an interesting film.
“I would be able to share the meaning of my film in overseas markets and film festivals, but emerging actors or staff members that took part in the project need the film to be shown in Korea so they can have the opportunity to become better known,” Kim said, adding, “Lee Eun-joo, who gave an impassioned performance in the role of a mother and lover, and Seo Yeong-ju, who plays the son, really deserve to show their work to Korean audiences.”
If they won't allow a negative depiction of consanguinamory, the message is loud and clear that they would not consider allowing a neutral or positive portrayal. That's too bad.

Chilling Effect as Film Edited to Escape Ban

I reported earlier about Kim Ki-duk's "Moebius" being held up because of "incest" scenes. Despite support for the film from other filmmakers, word is out now that the film will be edited to drop the supposedly offensive material. From globalpost.com...
South Korean filmmakers called on a government ratings' agency to lift an effective ban on the screening in the country of director Kim Ki-duk's latest film about incest.
"Moebius" received a "restricted screening" rating at the Korea Media Ratings Board (KMRB) on June 1 for including content "harmful to youth" as well as "unethical and unsocial" expressions.

The movie tells the story of a man who is raised up in a family destroyed by the father's affair and renounces the world.

Films classified for "restricted screening" can only be seen at theaters dedicated only to such films. Since South Korea does not have a single theater of that kind, the decision means Kim's new film cannot be shown in his home country.
Sounds like things need to change in Korea.


Kim said last week he has sent a letter of opinion asking the agency to reconsider the decision on June 5.
"As a filmmaker, it was inevitable to use incest as a motif of the film," he said in the letter. The scenes in question "are not focusing on the mother-son sexual intercourse but the relationship between parents," he explained.

"I think Korean adults should be given a chance to make their own judgment of my film."

They should have been. But here's what was reported at hollywoodereporter.com by Lee Hyo-won...

Kim Ki-duk has cut one minute and 20 seconds of his controversial film Moebius in order to submit it for a retrial by the Korea Media Rating Board (KMRB).
That might not sound like a lot, but consider...
In signed letter released to the press Tuesday, Kim explained that he decided to cut or modify 21 scenes that the KMRB had deemed “too problematic.” The director said he made the changes because he wanted to meet the film's previously scheduled domestic distribution date slated for September.
That's too bad.
Moebius portrays the destruction of a family as its members give into incestuous sexual desires.

So even though the portrayal was negative, it still had to be cut. Absurd.
The film, much like the director's 3-Iron (2004), proceeds without dialog and hence each and every scene is important, says the director.
“The plotline or expression of the scene may appear obscure, depending on the comprehension level of each audience member. But it is my hope that mature adult viewers would be able to discern the nuance and understand my intentions,” he said.
Sounds like an interesting film.
“I would be able to share the meaning of my film in overseas markets and film festivals, but emerging actors or staff members that took part in the project need the film to be shown in Korea so they can have the opportunity to become better known,” Kim said, adding, “Lee Eun-joo, who gave an impassioned performance in the role of a mother and lover, and Seo Yeong-ju, who plays the son, really deserve to show their work to Korean audiences.”
If they won't allow a negative depiction of consanguinamory, the message is loud and clear that they would not consider allowing a neutral or positive portrayal. That's too bad.

Monday, June 17, 2013

Writer of Into My Arms Interviewed

I mentioned the novel Into My Arms previously on this blog. The author, Kylie Ladd, was interviewed for a broadcast in Australia. You can listen to it or download it. Ladd is an egg donor, and she talks at length about that.
Kylie's latest novel deals with one of our deepest taboos: sexual attraction between blood relatives.

It's an idea that has come from the phenomenon of 'genetic sexual attraction', which suggests long-lost siblings, who first meet as adults, have a very high possibility of being sexually attracted to each other.
I want to clarify that Genetic Sexual Attraction can happen not only between siblings, but between parents and their adult children, and between aunts/uncles and nieces/nephews. I'm glad that the subject was mentioned on the program.

Writer of Into My Arms Interviewed

I mentioned the novel Into My Arms previously on this blog. The author, Kylie Ladd, was interviewed for a broadcast in Australia. You can listen to it or download it. Ladd is an egg donor, and she talks at length about that.
Kylie's latest novel deals with one of our deepest taboos: sexual attraction between blood relatives.

It's an idea that has come from the phenomenon of 'genetic sexual attraction', which suggests long-lost siblings, who first meet as adults, have a very high possibility of being sexually attracted to each other.
I want to clarify that Genetic Sexual Attraction can happen not only between siblings, but between parents and their adult children, and between aunts/uncles and nieces/nephews. I'm glad that the subject was mentioned on the program.

You'll Shoot Your Eye Out

Or perhaps pluck them out? Actually, while Oedipus Rex is famous ancient theatre that includes what today might be described as mother-son Genetic Sexual Attraction, I haven't heard of anyone in modern times having this reaction. But then, the guy did kill his own father, and maybe that had something to do with it? Chris Boyd reviews a theatrical production that is another take on this ancient tale and the review can be found at theaustralian.com...

By Their Own Hands
Anne-Louise Sarks and Benedict Hardie in By Their Own Hands. Picture: Pia Johnson 

THEATRE
By Their Own Hands
By Benedict Hardie and Anne-Louise Sarks.
The Hayloft Project, Melbourne Theatre Company Southbank Theatre, The Lawler, June 14.


THE Hayloft Project's take on the Oedipus story obsesses over the nuts and bolts of the incestuous relationship with the same kind of lurid curiosity that the Learning Channel showed to "extreme cougar wives" and their three, four and five-decade-younger lovers.
Like last year's
On the Misconception of Oedipus this play fingers incest as if it were a bruise, as if there were things to be gleaned from re-experiencing the pain. Implicitly, mother on son incest is "nicer", apparently, than father on daughter.
Hmm. If anyone reading this blog sees it, please report back.
Tickets $25. Bookings: mtc.com.au or (03) 8688 0800. Ends June 23.
I realize this is based on a classic work, but I'd like to see more neutral or positive portrayals of relationships that exist today and always have.

You'll Shoot Your Eye Out

Or perhaps pluck them out? Actually, while Oedipus Rex is famous ancient theatre that includes what today might be described as mother-son Genetic Sexual Attraction, I haven't heard of anyone in modern times having this reaction. But then, the guy did kill his own father, and maybe that had something to do with it? Chris Boyd reviews a theatrical production that is another take on this ancient tale and the review can be found at theaustralian.com...

By Their Own Hands
Anne-Louise Sarks and Benedict Hardie in By Their Own Hands. Picture: Pia Johnson 

THEATRE
By Their Own Hands
By Benedict Hardie and Anne-Louise Sarks.
The Hayloft Project, Melbourne Theatre Company Southbank Theatre, The Lawler, June 14.


THE Hayloft Project's take on the Oedipus story obsesses over the nuts and bolts of the incestuous relationship with the same kind of lurid curiosity that the Learning Channel showed to "extreme cougar wives" and their three, four and five-decade-younger lovers.
Like last year's
On the Misconception of Oedipus this play fingers incest as if it were a bruise, as if there were things to be gleaned from re-experiencing the pain. Implicitly, mother on son incest is "nicer", apparently, than father on daughter.
Hmm. If anyone reading this blog sees it, please report back.
Tickets $25. Bookings: mtc.com.au or (03) 8688 0800. Ends June 23.
I realize this is based on a classic work, but I'd like to see more neutral or positive portrayals of relationships that exist today and always have.

Sunday, June 16, 2013

Happy Father’s Day

For all men raising or helping to raise a child, whether you are a biological father, presumed father, grandfather, stepfather, bonus father, adoptive father, foster father or any variation… Happy Father’s Day!

A special thanks to fathers who have supported and loved their children who are LGBT, polyamorous, consanguinamorous, or have otherwise faced persecution or oppression because of who they are or the person(s) they love.

Finally, a note of encouragement to all fathers who can’t legally marry the person(s) they love, but would if they could, or who face bullying due to love or who they are: We will win so that every adult can pursue love, sex, and marriage with any consenting adults.

Oh, and if you have an especially interesting Father's Day, tell us about it.

Friday, June 14, 2013

An Eloquent Defense of Polyamory

Poly Momma is a blog about someone’s experience with motherhood and polyamory. At the page “Who is PolyMomma?”, she writes…

I’m married to a wonderful man and we practice responsible non-monogamy. We’ve been together for over three years and we have always been open. He’s been with his secondary partner for two years now. We all practice open, honest communication.

In November, 2009 I had my first baby, a boy. He’s the best, cutest baby in the world and I want to be the best mother I can be for him.

Later…

We’re not swingers, our secondary relationships are often committments, real, meaningful relationships that exist on their own. We don’t restrict each other sexually, but we do have rules we try to respect.

We’re also not looking outside our marriage because we’re unhappy in our marriage. But we are happy in our marriage because we look outside it. We probably wouldn’t have gotten married if we didn’t have an open relationship. It’s something we share and it’s part of our mutual trust and respect for each other.

It was this entry by noblecaboose, a letter to her future employer, that caught my attention. She plans on teaching, but does not plan to be out. She writes the letter as though she has been outed against her will.

I make every effort keep my personal life separate from my work life. My activism and activity online is always under a pseudonym and while I am an activist for my lifestyle and other issues, I do not intend to allow that to enter the classroom. I am here to do a job, and espousing my lifestyle, religion and other beliefs do not enter into that.

The truth is, my love life is not much different from a single person’s. If I were a single person, nobody would be surprised to find me dating someone or if I had a series of relationships. Similarly, if I were divorced, nobody would think it odd that I had a boyfriend but still had contact with my husband and custody of my child. The difference is my relationships are concurrent.

That is a very good point. Teachers should not be discriminated against for being married to one person in a heterosexual marriage and being monogamous, or for sharing an occasional lover with the spouse, or for being unmarried and dating, or for being married to someone of the same sex, or for being in a polyamorous polycule, or for abstaining from sex, dating, and marriage entirely. The question is, can the person teach?

I should emphasise that my relationships are not about sex. Furthermore, I am not a sex addict or a sexual predator and what goes on between consenting adults is none of the school’s business.

She’s right. It isn’t.

Read it all.

If you were a Principal or Superintendent over a school and one of your best teachers was outed a polyamorous with other teachers or with parents and students expressing concern, how would you handle it? If you had a child in that teacher's class, and other parents wanted you to join them in calling for the teacher's removal, what would you say? You may have to live this out in real life. Poly people are everywhere, and it is harder and harder to keep personal lives private.

An Eloquent Defense of Polyamory

Poly Momma is a blog about someone’s experience with motherhood and polyamory. At the page “Who is PolyMomma?”, she writes…

I’m married to a wonderful man and we practice responsible non-monogamy. We’ve been together for over three years and we have always been open. He’s been with his secondary partner for two years now. We all practice open, honest communication.

In November, 2009 I had my first baby, a boy. He’s the best, cutest baby in the world and I want to be the best mother I can be for him.

Later…

We’re not swingers, our secondary relationships are often committments, real, meaningful relationships that exist on their own. We don’t restrict each other sexually, but we do have rules we try to respect.

We’re also not looking outside our marriage because we’re unhappy in our marriage. But we are happy in our marriage because we look outside it. We probably wouldn’t have gotten married if we didn’t have an open relationship. It’s something we share and it’s part of our mutual trust and respect for each other.

It was this entry by noblecaboose, a letter to her future employer, that caught my attention. She plans on teaching, but does not plan to be out. She writes the letter as though she has been outed against her will.

I make every effort keep my personal life separate from my work life. My activism and activity online is always under a pseudonym and while I am an activist for my lifestyle and other issues, I do not intend to allow that to enter the classroom. I am here to do a job, and espousing my lifestyle, religion and other beliefs do not enter into that.

The truth is, my love life is not much different from a single person’s. If I were a single person, nobody would be surprised to find me dating someone or if I had a series of relationships. Similarly, if I were divorced, nobody would think it odd that I had a boyfriend but still had contact with my husband and custody of my child. The difference is my relationships are concurrent.

That is a very good point. Teachers should not be discriminated against for being married to one person in a heterosexual marriage and being monogamous, or for sharing an occasional lover with the spouse, or for being unmarried and dating, or for being married to someone of the same sex, or for being in a polyamorous polycule, or for abstaining from sex, dating, and marriage entirely. The question is, can the person teach?

I should emphasise that my relationships are not about sex. Furthermore, I am not a sex addict or a sexual predator and what goes on between consenting adults is none of the school’s business.

She’s right. It isn’t.

Read it all.

If you were a Principal or Superintendent over a school and one of your best teachers was outed a polyamorous with other teachers or with parents and students expressing concern, how would you handle it? If you had a child in that teacher's class, and other parents wanted you to join them in calling for the teacher's removal, what would you say? You may have to live this out in real life. Poly people are everywhere, and it is harder and harder to keep personal lives private.

Thursday, June 13, 2013

Those With Consanguinamory Experience Sought for Student Research

This add was placed on the Ann Arbor craigslist.org site...


research4science@yahoo.com
Posted: 2013-05-19, 8:12AM EDT

Consensual Incest? (U of M Campus)


Have you ever participated in consensual incestious lust/love with a close relative? Close relatives include father, mother, brother, sister, cousins, aunt, uncle, or grandparents. If so then here is your chance to tell your story and to let the world know that this happens at a much larger scale that is known. Everything will be anonymous and no names will be distribute. If you are wondering why I am so interested in this is due to the fact that I am conducting research on this project and will present my findings to my peers and professor. I am a current senior at the University of Michigan and I figured that I would try to obtain willing volunteers to discuss this topic in a safe environment to help educate our society of a very taboo topic that not too long ago was not. If you wouldn't mind helping me out anonymously then you can email me through this site and we can make plans to meet this week. Just so that my findings are accurate, I would need to meet with each willing participant in person and ask the questions with a recorder. You will be able to let me know what you feel comfortable being recorded and what you don't. So if this at all seems interesting to you, please contact me as soon as possible. I would like to be done with this part of my research by the end of this coming up week. This is all to educate the public.
  • Location: U of M Campus
  • it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
  • it's OK to distribute this charitable volunteerism opportunity for inclusion in 3rd party web sites that have been approved by craigslist

Posting ID: 3814796260

Well, there you have it. If any of you want to help, go for it.


Will Anyone Be Able to View Moebius?

Incest has been a topic for all of human history in the stories we tell each other, because incest has always been a part of life. The word "incest" can apply to the ugly reality of assault and molestation or to the beautiful reality of consensual sex (consanguinamory). These days, consanguineous sex between consenting adults is often portrayed as something only troubled, disturbed people would do. Which of these is going on in Kim Ki-duk's movie "Moebius" I can't be sure, but it might be closest to the latter. According to Pierce Conran at twitchfilm.com, the Korea Media Ratings Board has a problem with the movie.

moebius2


In a letter sent to the KMRB, Kim stated that the mother-son incest element of the film (which he believes is the cause of the agency's restrictive ruling) is a necessary element to his story. He further explained that when taken in context of the overall narrative, this deviant relationship takes on a different meaning. Kim wrote that the inclusion of the scenes was 'an inevitable choice' for him. If the film fails to secure a more lenient rating, Kim said he will reimburse cast and crew out of his own pocket.

Over at dramafever.com, reported...


On the reevaluation request, the director summarized the movie as the story in which “The jealousy and anger of the couple who lost faith are passed on to their son, making everyone live in guilt and sorrow, which eventually leads to giving up of pleasure and desire.” I know this summary doesn’t help much, and one would have to watch the movie to get what he’s saying.
The director also added that, “Even though physically, the son’s body is used, if you watch the movie carefully, the meaning is different … it’s an important tool which was inevitable to express the concept.”
Without arguing whether or not a ratings board should be able to effectively censor a movie, I'll just offer that I would be disturbed by assault or child molestation being depicted as positive. It should be depicted, and depicted as negative. It shouldn't be swept under the rug and ignored. Of course, I also support the depiction of consensual sex between adults in a positive light in general, and that includes consanguinamory. Yes, sometimes consensual sex happens for bad reasons or between people who aren't right for each other or it is unsatisfying, but it is dishonest for consanguinamory to never be depicted as a good thing. It shouldn't have to be a bad thing or done by disturbed characters within the context of a story for a depiction to be allowed.

Will Anyone Be Able to View Moebius?

Incest has been a topic for all of human history in the stories we tell each other, because incest has always been a part of life. The word "incest" can apply to the ugly reality of assault and molestation or to the beautiful reality of consensual sex (consanguinamory). These days, consanguineous sex between consenting adults is often portrayed as something only troubled, disturbed people would do. Which of these is going on in Kim Ki-duk's movie "Moebius" I can't be sure, but it might be closest to the latter. According to Pierce Conran at twitchfilm.com, the Korea Media Ratings Board has a problem with the movie.

moebius2


In a letter sent to the KMRB, Kim stated that the mother-son incest element of the film (which he believes is the cause of the agency's restrictive ruling) is a necessary element to his story. He further explained that when taken in context of the overall narrative, this deviant relationship takes on a different meaning. Kim wrote that the inclusion of the scenes was 'an inevitable choice' for him. If the film fails to secure a more lenient rating, Kim said he will reimburse cast and crew out of his own pocket.

Over at dramafever.com, reported...


On the reevaluation request, the director summarized the movie as the story in which “The jealousy and anger of the couple who lost faith are passed on to their son, making everyone live in guilt and sorrow, which eventually leads to giving up of pleasure and desire.” I know this summary doesn’t help much, and one would have to watch the movie to get what he’s saying.
The director also added that, “Even though physically, the son’s body is used, if you watch the movie carefully, the meaning is different … it’s an important tool which was inevitable to express the concept.”
Without arguing whether or not a ratings board should be able to effectively censor a movie, I'll just offer that I would be disturbed by assault or child molestation being depicted as positive. It should be depicted, and depicted as negative. It shouldn't be swept under the rug and ignored. Of course, I also support the depiction of consensual sex between adults in a positive light in general, and that includes consanguinamory. Yes, sometimes consensual sex happens for bad reasons or between people who aren't right for each other or it is unsatisfying, but it is dishonest for consanguinamory to never be depicted as a good thing. It shouldn't have to be a bad thing or done by disturbed characters within the context of a story for a depiction to be allowed.

France Needs to Keep Evolving

Here's an example of why France, which recently embraced the limited same-gender freedom to marry, needs to evolve to full marriage equality sooner rather than later.

Two adults, in the 40s, are being denied their right to marry.

Why?

Because many years ago, she was married to his father.

It doesn't matter that the hopeful groom was well into adulthood when she married his father.

It doesn't matter that the marriage only lasted three years.

It doesn't matter that she was left by that husband.

It doesn't matter that they are close in age.

The ridiculous laws say she is a stepmother to him, that such a relationship means they are to be denied their right to marry, and even the President can't do anything about it until the law is changed.

France has been friendly to consanguinamory, but when it comes to marriage, even though there is no blood relation, the discrimination continues.

As the law stands now, this couple can only marry if the hopeful groom's father dies/

How stupid is that?

Liberty? Equality? Hardly!

Lawmakers in France and just about every other country need to remedy the inequalities and inconsistencies sooner rather than later. It is simple, really. Rather than quibbling over which adults get which rights, just adopt a blanket approach: an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

By the way, the article gives no indication of what the hopeful groom's father thinks of all of this. At some time, he wanted this woman. Why is it surprising his son wants her now?

France Needs to Keep Evolving

Here's an example of why France, which recently embraced the limited same-gender freedom to marry, needs to evolve to full marriage equality sooner rather than later.

Two adults, in the 40s, are being denied their right to marry.

Why?

Because many years ago, she was married to his father.

It doesn't matter that the hopeful groom was well into adulthood when she married his father.

It doesn't matter that the marriage only lasted three years.

It doesn't matter that she was left by that husband.

It doesn't matter that they are close in age.

The ridiculous laws say she is a stepmother to him, that such a relationship means they are to be denied their right to marry, and even the President can't do anything about it until the law is changed.

France has been friendly to consanguinamory, but when it comes to marriage, even though there is no blood relation, the discrimination continues.

As the law stands now, this couple can only marry if the hopeful groom's father dies/

How stupid is that?

Liberty? Equality? Hardly!

Lawmakers in France and just about every other country need to remedy the inequalities and inconsistencies sooner rather than later. It is simple, really. Rather than quibbling over which adults get which rights, just adopt a blanket approach: an adult, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or religion, should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any and all consenting adults, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination.

By the way, the article gives no indication of what the hopeful groom's father thinks of all of this. At some time, he wanted this woman. Why is it surprising his son wants her now?

Wednesday, June 12, 2013

Update on Veto Situation


The hopeful bride-to-be has updated me on the situation I blogged about here.

She received a latter from someone in authority of the facility where the intended groom is held. That person with veto power will making a decision soon. In the mean time, the lovers who want to marry can submit things like:
  • evidence that they have lived together (what if they don't want to do that until they marry?)
  • letters of supprt from members of both immediate families expressing support for the union (really? other people in your family have to approve?)
  • statements from both lovers of intent to get premarital counseling (generally a good idea, but required?)
  • official documents and informal personal statements about the bride-to-be's criminal record (again, it was the "crime" of loving another consenting adult, so it sounds like they want her to say her relationship was all wrong and she deserved her criminal sentence)
  • a plan about how any children, theirs or otherwise, will be protected from the groom-to-be (the implication being a woman who has no kids and hates having kids around would be more likely to pass this test)

The implication is that if they do these things, they might be allowed to marry. This is despite the fact that if the groom-to-be was not incarcerated, nobody would look into criminal records or require passing any of these other tests. The bride-to-be is now asked to submit paperwork as though she is asking for parole, despite the fact that she finished her sentence years ago.

What is the harm of letting them marry?

If you're free to marry the person you love, realize how fortunate you are that nobody else can have a veto over your marriage, because so many people in the world, even in supposedly modern countries, aren't allowed their rights.


Update on Veto Situation


The hopeful bride-to-be has updated me on the situation I blogged about here.

She received a latter from someone in authority of the facility where the intended groom is held. That person with veto power will making a decision soon. In the mean time, the lovers who want to marry can submit things like:
  • evidence that they have lived together (what if they don't want to do that until they marry?)
  • letters of supprt from members of both immediate families expressing support for the union (really? other people in your family have to approve?)
  • statements from both lovers of intent to get premarital counseling (generally a good idea, but required?)
  • official documents and informal personal statements about the bride-to-be's criminal record (again, it was the "crime" of loving another consenting adult, so it sounds like they want her to say her relationship was all wrong and she deserved her criminal sentence)
  • a plan about how any children, theirs or otherwise, will be protected from the groom-to-be (the implication being a woman who has no kids and hates having kids around would be more likely to pass this test)

The implication is that if they do these things, they might be allowed to marry. This is despite the fact that if the groom-to-be was not incarcerated, nobody would look into criminal records or require passing any of these other tests. The bride-to-be is now asked to submit paperwork as though she is asking for parole, despite the fact that she finished her sentence years ago.

What is the harm of letting them marry?

If you're free to marry the person you love, realize how fortunate you are that nobody else can have a veto over your marriage, because so many people in the world, even in supposedly modern countries, aren't allowed their rights.


Tuesday, June 11, 2013

Thin Walls Reveal Consanguinamory

Supporters of full marriage equality can help the cause by speaking up for relationship rights for all when the opportunities present themselves. One place where such opportunities can happen is in discussion forums. For example, I found this thread in the forum at womens-health.com. LisaW1991 got things kicked off by writing...
I live in an appartment next door to nice guy who's going to college. He has lived there for almost a year. Friendly guy who is single. He doesn't appear to have steady GF, but he does bring home girls occasionally and has sex. The walls are pretty thin, and I can hear them having sex. One girl that has been there several times has been his sister, and everytime she stays the weekend, its clear they have sex several times. I've met her and talked to her down at the pool, and they seem like an affectionate couple when are out in public, but he always introduces her to everyone as his sister.

Its really none of my business so I have not said anything to him about hearing them have sex through the wall, but sometimes I wonder if I should just so he knows. I've not said anything because hearing others have sex does not bother me, and I don't want make him feel he needs to hold back.
Thankfully, she didn't express prejudice about the situation, like we have seen with like situations before. Yes, we have seen people asking about hearing their sibling neighbors make love and wondering what to do.



A subsequent comment asks if they are really blood relation or have some other connection, so the original poster added...
I don't know if they are blood related. She did come with his parents to visit once. They kinda look a like a little, but I don't know if that just me looking for anything that's similar, like they laugh the same way, and they both have green eyes. Sometimes I think they act like brother-sister, then other times it seems like they act like couple. My sister thinks they are blood related, but I think she seeing similarities that I think aren't really there or too common, like she thinks they have the same nose, but I don't agree. Besides, I have seen couples who aren't blood related that look almost like twins.

Yeah, it could be possible they are related by marriage. I really don't know much about their background. We're just neighbors, not very close friends. We've only chatted a few times in passing or when hanging out at the pool. Its kinda strange to feel like I know more about his sex life from what I hear through the walls, than I do about him as a person. And, from comes through the wall, I am surprised he doesn't have a steady GF because he is a nice guy and obviously women have a good time when they spend the night.

And then...
They even have the same last name. He just doesn't know my sister and I can hear them having sex when she spends the weekend.

We had not seen her for a while, but she spent last weekend with him, and well, here was some intense bedroom activity occurring while she was here.
CHANDLERS WISH chimed in with saying they aren't doing anyone harm. Someone else pretty much gave their approval, but only as long as they didn't make babies. (See Discredited Argument #18.)

There original poster added...
I try not to be judgemental about such choices if is a mutual choice\attraction. When I was 14 I had sexual encounter with a cousin who was 16. I was already sexual active, but he had never had sex before. One evening we were alone together and began engaging in foreplay that led to us having sex.

CHANDLERS WISH returned to add..
I think the fact that you mentioned that, about your cousin, means you are curious as to why this occurs, as in how other people think of it and want to interact in conversation with him as you probably can't talk to others about your situation.

I think it happens more than we know...

Kids are curious and attraction is attraction.

If that is what you are feeling? Then I wouldn't be shy to be assertive to discuss in general incest but how is another story ...

LisaW1991 responded...
Yes, what you say is true to some degree because my cousin and I first started had sexual contact when I was 11 and it continued, but we didn't start having sex until I was 14. I was willing to have sex sooner than that, but he was very hesitant and prefered we limit our encounters to oral sex and sleeping the night together. Even though we are cousins, he is always seemed like a brother to my sisters and I, so while technically we were kissing cousins, it was more like of a brother-sister relationship. When we did start having sex, it was pretty intense, and it does remind me of what I hear through the wall when my neighbor has sex with his sister.

One person did talk abut their own crushes within extended family (cousins, family-by-marriage) but then invoked Discredited Argument #1 against siblings.

The good news is that, at least when I last checked, the discussion was generally positive and supportive of the siblings. 10-15% of college-aged people admit in surveys to having had consensual sexual contact with a sibling, so the siblings this thread discusses are like many, many others their age. The poster's perception that the lovemaking is intense agrees with what people in such relationships say

My advice to the original poster, or anyone in that position, would be that people in consanguinamorous relationships often feel alone against the world and constrained due to the prejudices against them. Having friends who know about them and are still up for spending time with them is usually most welcome. Be a friend. Sit down with him or both of them together, and with a smile tell them they make a lovely couple. If the response is "we're siblings" come back with "that doesn't mean you can't be a couple." It will get the conversation going if you let them know that you're not going to reject them or spread nasty rumors about them or turn them into law enforcement or their parents (who may already know).

Thin Walls Reveal Consanguinamory

Supporters of full marriage equality can help the cause by speaking up for relationship rights for all when the opportunities present themselves. One place where such opportunities can happen is in discussion forums. For example, I found this thread in the forum at womens-health.com. LisaW1991 got things kicked off by writing...
I live in an appartment next door to nice guy who's going to college. He has lived there for almost a year. Friendly guy who is single. He doesn't appear to have steady GF, but he does bring home girls occasionally and has sex. The walls are pretty thin, and I can hear them having sex. One girl that has been there several times has been his sister, and everytime she stays the weekend, its clear they have sex several times. I've met her and talked to her down at the pool, and they seem like an affectionate couple when are out in public, but he always introduces her to everyone as his sister.

Its really none of my business so I have not said anything to him about hearing them have sex through the wall, but sometimes I wonder if I should just so he knows. I've not said anything because hearing others have sex does not bother me, and I don't want make him feel he needs to hold back.
Thankfully, she didn't express prejudice about the situation, like we have seen with like situations before. Yes, we have seen people asking about hearing their sibling neighbors make love and wondering what to do.



A subsequent comment asks if they are really blood relation or have some other connection, so the original poster added...
I don't know if they are blood related. She did come with his parents to visit once. They kinda look a like a little, but I don't know if that just me looking for anything that's similar, like they laugh the same way, and they both have green eyes. Sometimes I think they act like brother-sister, then other times it seems like they act like couple. My sister thinks they are blood related, but I think she seeing similarities that I think aren't really there or too common, like she thinks they have the same nose, but I don't agree. Besides, I have seen couples who aren't blood related that look almost like twins.

Yeah, it could be possible they are related by marriage. I really don't know much about their background. We're just neighbors, not very close friends. We've only chatted a few times in passing or when hanging out at the pool. Its kinda strange to feel like I know more about his sex life from what I hear through the walls, than I do about him as a person. And, from comes through the wall, I am surprised he doesn't have a steady GF because he is a nice guy and obviously women have a good time when they spend the night.

And then...
They even have the same last name. He just doesn't know my sister and I can hear them having sex when she spends the weekend.

We had not seen her for a while, but she spent last weekend with him, and well, here was some intense bedroom activity occurring while she was here.
CHANDLERS WISH chimed in with saying they aren't doing anyone harm. Someone else pretty much gave their approval, but only as long as they didn't make babies. (See Discredited Argument #18.)

There original poster added...
I try not to be judgemental about such choices if is a mutual choice\attraction. When I was 14 I had sexual encounter with a cousin who was 16. I was already sexual active, but he had never had sex before. One evening we were alone together and began engaging in foreplay that led to us having sex.

CHANDLERS WISH returned to add..
I think the fact that you mentioned that, about your cousin, means you are curious as to why this occurs, as in how other people think of it and want to interact in conversation with him as you probably can't talk to others about your situation.

I think it happens more than we know...

Kids are curious and attraction is attraction.

If that is what you are feeling? Then I wouldn't be shy to be assertive to discuss in general incest but how is another story ...

LisaW1991 responded...
Yes, what you say is true to some degree because my cousin and I first started had sexual contact when I was 11 and it continued, but we didn't start having sex until I was 14. I was willing to have sex sooner than that, but he was very hesitant and prefered we limit our encounters to oral sex and sleeping the night together. Even though we are cousins, he is always seemed like a brother to my sisters and I, so while technically we were kissing cousins, it was more like of a brother-sister relationship. When we did start having sex, it was pretty intense, and it does remind me of what I hear through the wall when my neighbor has sex with his sister.

One person did talk abut their own crushes within extended family (cousins, family-by-marriage) but then invoked Discredited Argument #1 against siblings.

The good news is that, at least when I last checked, the discussion was generally positive and supportive of the siblings. 10-15% of college-aged people admit in surveys to having had consensual sexual contact with a sibling, so the siblings this thread discusses are like many, many others their age. The poster's perception that the lovemaking is intense agrees with what people in such relationships say

My advice to the original poster, or anyone in that position, would be that people in consanguinamorous relationships often feel alone against the world and constrained due to the prejudices against them. Having friends who know about them and are still up for spending time with them is usually most welcome. Be a friend. Sit down with him or both of them together, and with a smile tell them they make a lovely couple. If the response is "we're siblings" come back with "that doesn't mean you can't be a couple." It will get the conversation going if you let them know that you're not going to reject them or spread nasty rumors about them or turn them into law enforcement or their parents (who may already know).

Monday, June 10, 2013

A Tumblr Supporting Consanguinamory

You can find a lot of interesting stuff on Tumblr. You have to wonder if that's going to change moving forward now that it is being swallowed up by Yahoo. (Youngsters: look up "GeoCities.") For now, you can find things like Gay Brotherly Love, which is relevant to this blog. (For those of you unfamiliar with Tumblr, you can find much there that is NOT SAFE FOR WORK, so be warned. Here's what GBL is about...

Update on Call for GSA Experienced

I previously pointed out a casting call for those who have experienced Genetic Sexual Attraction. I have communicated with someone involved in the project. Here's some more information...



In reading about GSA I was very moved by the experiences of people on the forums yet incredibly disappointed that so many of them felt isolated from their friends, family and society in general. It's awful that something as common as GSA is so stigmatised and taboo that people feel they have no platform through which to explore their situations. I’ve been a documentary maker for the last decade and over the last year or so I've developed a strong desire to explore this topic on film.

I am aware that the media often sensationalises GSA as a subject and understand that people may be reluctant to share their stories at risk of being exploited. We are in the very early stages of developing the project and would really like to talk to anyone who has experience or insight into GSA to ensure we approach the topic in a way that respects and remains sensitive to people's feelings and privacy.
In a subsequent message…
I am happy for you to share my contact details with anyone in the community - though we have also set up a specific email address mygsastory@gmail.com for this project - so feel free to pass that on.
And…
For anyone interested in being involved in the project though, I am more than happy to be completely transparent about who we are and what our motives behind making the film are.

I would love to chat to anyone who has experience with GSA, directly or indirectly and would be extremely grateful if you knew of anyone you thought might be appropriate.

So, there you go. If you have experience with GSA, and if you are willing to send an email to possibly give input to this project, have it at.


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