Beautiful Woman Denied the Right to Marry the Father of Her Children

"lilsis" is a beautiful woman and a mother. She’s deeply in love with the father of her children, but not only are they currently denied their right to marry, but they have to hide their love for each other or risk prosecution and having their children taken away.

Read this interview and ask yourself if there is one good reason their rights should be denied.

*****

FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Tell us about your background and who you are.

lilsis: I'm a woman living in the UK. I was fostered from a very young age - not sure of the reasons behind this, but I know my mother couldn't cope and Social Services became involved fairly early on. I was shipped around with my older sister for a few years until we were eventually officially fostered together with permanent foster parents (I was 6 and she was 9). My sister was raised for a short period of time with our older sister, but I never was. We were aware, however, of the existence of both our older sister and our brother, who was a year older than me. Throughout the period we were fostered, there was infrequent contact with our birth mother, though none with our father. Our brother had been allowed to go and live with our birth mother, but was very rarely present during our visits. I did not have a sibling relationship with him at any point.

I eventually married and had three children, but the marriage was not a particularly happy one. We stayed together mainly for financial reasons.


FME: How were you reunited with your brother?

I tried to maintain contact with my sister, but there was no contact with either my older sister or brother throughout any of my teenage years or adult life. I eventually made contact with my sister (the one I was raised with) when my daughter was around 4 months old and we decided to maintain contact. It was during one of these visits that I met my brother, who she had been in touch with (without telling me).


FME: How did that go?

There was an immediate spark, which utterly confused me. Upon meeting him for the first time, I felt like I was meeting a boyfriend, which disconcerted me somewhat but did not feel wrong. We quickly found that we had similar interests and became very close very quickly. I maintained contact with him once I went home by phone and msn, but we still did not feel like siblings. I felt like I was in the throes of a new relationship. We communicated every day for a few months, meeting up in person whenever we could (he lived several hundred miles away). At one of these visits, we consummated our relationship. We had talked about this very vaguely before this, but it took us both by surprise when it happened. Even so, it was something we both wanted and did not feel wrong at all - in fact, it felt like it was meant to be.


FME: Were you aware of Genetic Sexual Attraction before this happened?

Neither of us had ever heard of GSA before our meeting and I only found it by accident when I started looking it up on the Internet afterwards. I was kind of relieved to find that there were others out there in the same situation.


FME: What kind of relationship do you have now?

We are in an exclusive relationship. I have no sibling feelings towards him whatsoever and we are currently living together as a couple. The only people who know the truth about us are our sister, birth mother, my foster mother and a couple of close friends. We would never feel in a position to share this information with others, given the legal situation. They were naturally shocked at first but have come to accept us for who we are.

My brother and I now have two children together, both of whom are healthy.


FME: So much for the common misunderstanding that children born to siblings “will” have birth defects. They're adorable and that's pretty much what anyone would would think if they passed by them.

We were a little concerned when I fell pregnant with our first child, as we had heard all the rumours about genetic conditions etc, but these fears proved to be unfounded. We had all the checks done that we could during the pregnancy and everything came back normal. We were immensely relieved to find that both children were born normal.


FME: What are some of the disadvantages of this relationship?

It can be difficult sometimes, as we have had to lie about how we met, etc. to people around us, as we could not afford for the truth to come out. We also had a lot of issues with my ex-husband, who would make life impossible for us if he found out and would ensure that my children were taken away from me. Without going into detail, he almost found out about us and it caused huge problems and almost ended our relationship for safety reasons. We could not afford for the UK authorities to get wind of our relationship, hence the secrecy.


FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove or your relationship?

It does annoy me when I read comments from people who have no idea what they're talking about, i.e. your child will definitely be born with problems etc.

It also annoys me when I read comments from others in the GSA community who say you cannot have a successful relationship. I think we are living proof that this is untrue. We have been together now for 7 years and are still going strong.


FME: Anything else you want people to know?

Just that if we were able to get married, we would do so in a heartbeat. We are both disappointed that this will never be a reality and are saddened by the fact that our relationship would never be accepted by society. We would be considered deviants, when in fact we have done nothing wrong. Social Services in this country would consider us a danger to our own children, which seems utterly bizarre. Just because we fell in love does not make us paedophiles or sexual deviants.

We feel it is unfair that same-sex couples are now being actively encouraged to adopt etc., when we are not even allowed to simply be together, are considered sexual deviants and could, in theory, have our children removed from us and given to a same-sex couple. Don't get me wrong, we have no issues with same-sex couples or gays and lesbians at all, but we do have an issue when we hear bigoted remarks not only from the same people who attack gays and lesbians, but from some gays and lesbians as well when it comes to people in our situation. You would think that given that they were persecuted too at one point, they would have more of an understanding.

*****

There you have it. Two consenting adults with healthy children together, denied their right to marry and having to hide their love for each other. Why? There’s no good reason. The only disadvantages to the relationship she cited had to do with prejudice against such relationships. I am more optimistic than she is about the future. The UK and other countries need to adopt full marriage equality sooner rather than later, so that an adult is free to marry any consenting adults. Real people are being hurt because of a denial of their basic human rights to love each other freely. As she noted there at the end, solidarity is needed.

You can read other interviews I have done here.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this.

If you are a family member or friend of someone who is in or may be in such a relationship, please read this.

Thank you to lilsis and the man who'd be her legal husband if the law didn't discriminate against them for sharing their situation with us.

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Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,family reaction,freedom to marry,GSA,lack of equality harms,love,persecution,prejudice,reunion,siblings,solidarity,UK

Fraternal Polyandry in the Himalayas in the News Again

Every once in a while, people notice traditional polyandry (a form of polygamy), in which a woman marries multiple men. With fraternal polyandry, the men are brothers. That means that while she has multiple husbands, she only has one mother-in-law.

When Tashi Sangmo was 17 she married a 14-year-old neighbour in a remote Himalayan village in Nepal and, as part of the package, she also agreed to wed his younger brother.

In ancient times, the sons of almost every family in the region of Upper Dolpa would jointly marry one woman but the practice of polyandry is dying out as the region begins to open up to modern life.

"Things are easier this way because everything we have stays in one family. It doesn't get divided among many wives and it is me in charge," said Sangmo, who uses a dialect of Tibetan and was speaking through an interpreter.

"Two brothers bring in the money and it's me who decides what to do with it."

Yet, there are prejudiced anti-equality people who try to tell us that polygamy always oppresses women.

Marriages are typically arranged, with a family picking a wife for their oldest son and giving the younger brothers the chance to wed her later.

In some cases the wives will even help raise their future husbands, entering into sexual relationships with them when they are considered mature enough.

Unlike most men in conservative, predominantly Hindu Nepal, husbands in polyandrous marriages handle domestic duties, helping with cooking and childcare, while women are in charge of the money.

Interesting, no?

Polyandry works well where there is a division of labour between brothers -- one to look after livestock, one to help the wife in the fields and one to join the trade caravan.

Many also see it as a kind of life assurance, highlighting the added security for women of an arrangement which means they will not be left alone if one husband dies.

There are good reasons people have nonmonogamous marriages. Their marriages are no less valid or reason than monogamous marriages. Although customs and conditions are different in places like the US, Canada, Australia, England, or France, why shouldn’t they allow people to have polyandrous marriages if that is what they want?

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Posted in: Asia,polyandry,polygamy,siblings

Daphne Bramham is Very Upset Some Adults Love More Than One

Daphne Bramham at vancouversun.com wrote on “Polygamy and the Toronto School Board’s big mistake.” It was about this poster that showed representations of love, including what many people have interpreted as depictions of polyamorous relationships. It is part of a worthy campaign.

Toronto school board members may not have thought about polygamy when it approved a poster that shows a stick man and two stick women inside a heart.

Really? What other inference can you take from two women and a man all holding hands, even they are stick people?

That sometimes, more than two adults are involved?

Sure, Toronto is a long way from Bountiful where Canada’s most infamous polygamists live.

Those “infamous poygamists” are not the only polyamorists in Canada.

But surely someone had read about the trial in Kingston, Ont. that ended in January with the conviction of polygamist Mohammad Shafia, his second wife, Rona, and their son, Hamed, of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. The elder Shafia orchestrated the murders of his first wife and his three daughters in Kingston, Ont. and couched it all in terms of ‘honour killing.’

Good thing no professed monogamists have ever killed anyone, right? I’m sure the problem with Mohammad, Rona, and Hamed was polygamy, and that if Mohammad was a professed monogamist there would never have been a problem, right? Yes, because of this case, all adults who love more than one other adult and all adults who love someone who also loves another, and all of their children must be ignored at best and persecuted and prosecuted at worst. That makes sense. Uh huh.

Yet, school board spokesman Ryan Bird has insisted in various media interviews that told the National Post that  the poster — aimed at educating students about gender-based discrimination — was “meant to show that a person can be attracted to more than one gender.”

Well, the poster does say that, doesn’t it? Oh, so it is bisexuals we should be ignoring. Got it.

The program is supposed to affirm and support “all sexual identities, biological sexes, sexual orientations, gender expressions and gender identities.”

Good for them!

But by being so stupid and so blind how the image reads to most people, the Toronto School Board appears to be promoting a practise that leads almost invariably not only to the sexual exploitation of girls, the expulsion of boys, but poor educational and health outcomes.

Hmmm, no, I don’t think so.

It is obvious from her attack that she was "blind" to the image in the lower right corner clearly showing two males with a female. That can't represent either the Muslim or Mormon polygyny.she rails against. So, does she think polyandry is OK?

Daphne Bramham is right to be concerned about domestic violence and child abuse. She is ridiculous and it is sad that she sweepingly condemns consensual polyamorous relationships and is afraid of anything anyone might construe as a positive representation of them.

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Posted in: academia,allies,bisexual,Canada,LGBT,love,media,persecution,polyamory,polyandry,polygamy,polygyny,prejudice,same-sex

Meanwhile, in Nigeria

According to James Azania’s article at punchng.com, cousins were arrested for “incest.” Cousins. You know, people who can legally marry in so many places in the world?

Two cousins in Elele, near Auchi, Etsako West Local Government Area of Edo State, Aishetu and Ayibaba, were reportedly paraded by villagers, after they were allegedly caught in sexual act.

Oh no! People were having sex?

Ayibaba, son of a highly placed chief in the community, was said to have engaged in the act with Aishetu, a married first cousin. Aishetu is also said to be a mother of three.

So was this cheating, or does Aishetu have an agreement with her spouse? We aren’t told anything about her marriage or the opinion of her spouse.

Reports had it that some passers-by saw them in the act under a cashew tree and consequently dragged them to the village square, naked.

Really? Having sex is bad, dragging people naked to the village square is acceptable?

A woman, who identified herself as Zainab said Aishetu’s three children joined the crowd while their mother was being paraded before the public.

She said, “Aishetu is married and has three children, but she was in the habit of leaving her husband to go and have sex with her cousin who is younger than her. “

Younger than her? How dare she.

”In fact, we are suspecting that she is using charm to get her cousin to have sex with her.”

What about wiles?

”It is a taboo in this village, so that is why we are parading them in the village.”

Gossip and forcible public humiliation are perfectly fine, though.

“We learnt that they have been involved in this immoral act for a long time now. They always go to the bush to have sex. So, some members of our community followed them into the bush and immediately they started under the cashew tree, they were caught.”

And uninvited voyeurism and lying in wait (so much for the "passerby" reports) are also peachy, apparently.

Like everwhere else in the world, people in that village need to realize that consensual sex between cousins, or any other consenting adults, shouldn’t be a criminal matter. I don’t support sexual cheating, but for all we know this wasn’t cheating, and cheating shouldn’t be a criminal matter either. While the details may be different, this sort of thing also happens in places like the US. Consenting adults are arrested and "paraded" via news reports and in courtrooms and sentenced to prison for consensual sex with close relatives. It shouldn't happen in the US, the UK, Nigeria, or Nova Scotia.

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Posted in: Africa,consanguineous,cousins,incest,law,persecution,prejudice

Michigan Supreme Court Selects [Another] Medical Marijuana Case

The criminal defense bar saw all this litigation coming from a distance.  At this blog, we knew that the Michigan Medical Marijuana Act would be challenged, diced, and spliced for years after its passage in 2008. 

Well, no disappointment on that front, as the Michigan Supreme Court has selected yet another medical marijuana case for briefing and argument during their term which will commence next week.  This case will follow the Supreme Court's seminal Kolanek decision and nearly a dozen opinions from the intermediate appellate court issued over the past four years.

This time, the action arises from Kent County and the issue involves the collective farming and distribution scheme of a certified "care provider".  The case, People v Bylsma, was decided by the Michigan Court of Appeals in a published decision one year ago.

The care provider was the subject of a raid conducted by the Grand Rapids PD which yeilded more than 88 plants from a grow operation housed in a commercial rental facility.  Problem: this care provider only had two certified "patients"; a person is allowed up to five under the Act.  You may possess up to 12 plants for each patient.

In the trial court, Mr. Bylsma asserted the immunity afforded by the medical marijuana act, and moved to dismiss the case.  He also argued that the Act does not prevent multiple care providers from collaborating their grow operations.  The lower court denied the motion to dismiss, and Bylsma's appeal to the Michigan Court of Appeals resulted in that decision being affirmed.

Now, the Michigan Supreme Court will take a look.  Its decision will further develop our growing medical marijuana jurisprudence.

This case presents an opportunity to further address one of the primary tensions that have developed between care providers attempting to distribute medical marijuana, and perhaps turn a profit in doing so, and the law enforcement agencies that have been uncertain about what is legal and what remains illegal.

The Kolanek decision smoothed out the mechanics of the immunity and affirmative defense provisions of the Act.  Prosecutors took a very restrictive view of the latter, while the criminal defense bar argued for a broader application of the defense.

We here at the Law Blogger recently had the opportunity to brief this issue in a case pending before the Court of Appeals.  Both Kolanek and now Bylsma will affect the outcome in our case.

As for Bylsma, let's just sit back and see whether the Supreme Court will interpret the Act in a manner which will allow these pot farmers to make some money.

www.clarkstonlegal.com
info@clarkstonlegal.com



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Posted in: criminal defense lawyer,Kolanek,lawyer,medical marijuana,Medical Marijuana Act,Michigan Court of Appeals,Michigan Supreme Court,Ryan Bylsma

Solidarity Between LGBT People and Polyamorists

At emptyclosets.com, dreamcatcher wrote about "polyamory and the lgbt community"...

Yesterday at my gsa, we had a sexuality panel where people of different sexualities (asexual, pan, bi, gay, etc) gathered together and spoke about their experiences. Two of the panel members up there were polyamorous. They were all supposed to represent all the sexualities of the lgbt community. I'm kind of confused as to why polyamory is being included in the lgbt community. They seem to be two different, unrelated things to me. Can anyone enlighten me?

Some LGBT people are monogamous, some are polyamorous.

jsmurf wrote...

Because bisexual men and women, and gay men supposedly have a knack for not being huge on committed monogamy... Which is total BS, but I guess that's how the hetero world often sees us.

Uh, was the "hetero world" organizing a Gay-Straight Alliance event?

TheEdend got it right with this...

I personally think its a great idea to educate people about the different possibilities for relationships that there are out there. It is still, sadly, a controversial topic for many people so a lot of LGBT organizations prefer to not touch the subject.

Gold Griffin showed solidarity...

I honestly have no problem with polyamory or group marriage in general. I know that it is a frequent talking point of conservatives that legalizing gay marriage leads to polygamy and whatnot, but as long as all the members of the group are consenting (and it is an equal relationship, not the patriarch and his slave wives) then I do not see any real moral obligation that would render either polygamy, polyandry, group marriage, or the like wrong.

Yes, whether someone is heterosexual, gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. is a different factor than if they are monogamous, polyamorous, etc., just like it is a different factor than if they are cisgendered, transgendered, etc. But all of those factors involve someone's identity and their sexuality. So while I can understand the benefit of having an event that focuses on LGBT monogamy, there are some events that should include polyamory not just because some LGBT people are polyamorous, but because even monogamous LGBT people and heterosexual polyamorists face continuing discrimination perpetuated by the same sources. LGBT monogamists who throw poly people under the bus are like those white US women of yesteryear who fought for their rights but threw people of color under the bus. We should all join together, including heterosexual cisgendered monogamous vanilla allies, and say that an adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults.

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Valerie Spruill Raising GSA Awareness

Valerie Spruill, a woman I blogged about the other day because she unknowingly married her genetic father, continues to make the news. CNN picked up her story in this piece by Chelsea J. Carter…

It was a dark secret. The kind that destroys lives, devastates families and decimates faith.

That’s a bit negative and overly dramatic. He provided half of the genetic material that made her. And they loved each other.

Spruill met and married her husband-father in Akron and settled in Doylestown, a working class suburb of about 2,300.

It was her second marriage. Spruill was a nice man, a good provider. He was kind to her three children from her previous marriage.

"We had a good life," she said.

Isn’t that what is important???

In recent days, she has been in contact with a couple who found out after they were married that they were brother and sister.

They told her, she said, that her story is helping them deal with their own experience.

"They are trying to be friends now," Spruill said.

I wonder if they are people we already know about? It is unfortunate that they felt a need to end their marriage.

Others, though, have been less kind.

"They've said things like 'Some secrets should stay secrets,'" she said.

They’re hateful people who want to stick their heads in the sand and ignore the truth.

Spruill, herself, has three children and eight grandchildren. She struggled with telling her children that the man they believed was their step-father was their grandfather.

A therapist "advised me to tell my kids," she said. "I told them about two years ago. They are remarkable. They are handling it better than I am."

In recent days, shortly before the news broke, she also told her grandchildren.

"They have been so supportive. They are telling me they love me, telling me they will do whatever I need," she said.

That’s as it should be. Good for them!

In her spare time, since retiring from the accounting department where she worked for 34 years at Goodyear, she has been writing down her story with the hopes of publishing it.

It could make a great book and a great movie. Whether or not this was a case of Genetic Sexual Attraction, I don’t know. I have not read anything about how she and her husband met and what her feelings were like then. This case involves some of the same issues as GSA either way. In none of the stories have I seen an example of why her marriage was a problematic, other than her feelings about consanguinamory. This indicates to me that if we change our attitude towards consanguinamory, there will be less suffering.

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Posted in: boundaries,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,incest,love,Ohio,prejudice

A Perspective on Heterosexual Polygamy From Swaziland

Zakhele Dawson writes at the Times of Swaziland about polygamy, tying it in to recent local events...

If there’s one thing that can be said about Minister Hlobisile Ndlovu, it is that she is fearless in her opinions. Only days after being plastered all over the news after an altercation with her husband at OR Tambo airport in Johannesburg, she stood up in Parliament to declare that she preferred polygamous marriages to monogamous ones.

How many times have we heard that polygyny is not something any women choose?

Personally I do not see it as a question of morality but one of practicality. After all, what most western societies have forgotten is that they, too, were mostly polygamous once, in various ways. In fact, monogamy is officially practiced by a minority of cultures, although that minority includes the majority of the human population.

Interesting way of looking at it.

But polygamy, whether it is a family unit composed of one man and several wives (polygyny) or one woman and several husbands (polyandry – I just want to put on record how much I love Google), exists in societies for defined, practical reasons. I have lived in several countries around the world, both developed and undeveloped, and my observation is that polygamy is most often practiced in resource-scarce societies. It’s a way of sharing resources and responsibilities more effectively.

I suppose that depends on how one defines polygamy. Official, legally recognized marriages, perhaps. But open marriages, swinging, and polygamory are certainly found where wealth abounds, and there is polygyny among the wealthy in Arabia, no?

However, in countries where there is a large gap between the rich and the poor (in both monogamous and polygamous societies), the rich tend to operate polygamously, even if it is outside social sanction. 

Other people have noticed that, too.

The musings go into trust and jealousy. It is interesting, though I think the focus is limited and stereotypical, completely ignoring same-gender attraction and relationships and chalking up polygamy to accommodating temptation and baby making. There are people on polyamorous relationships for many reasons. Most of those relationships were not formed due to a lack of self-control.

I do see that polymorous and polygamous relationships can reduce the consumption footprint of the people involved, such as with sharing one home instead of several, and that can be beneficial for everyone.

Gender and sexual orientation equality under the law is essential. Building on those, the polygamous freedom to marry should be available to every adult, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. It is an important factor in full marriage equality.

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Posted in: Africa,freedom to marry,politicians,polygamy

Where to Discuss Consanguinamory

I am updating and bumping up this entry.

I welcome comments here. So when I write about consanguinamory (consensual incest) you can comment here. But if you want to find a discussion forum for these topics, where do you go?

Kindred Spirits is a great, free, welcoming discussion forum about consanguinamory. Porn is not allowed. Advice is not given in the forum discussions; you might get some through private messages. Please read the rules and introduce yourself within the time limit of registering.

Penny 4 Your Thoughts is another great, free, discussion forum. much like Kindred Spirits. It was formerly known as "Porn Free Incest" or "Incest Therapy" and has a new location. Please read the rules and introduce yourself within the time limit of registering.

For discussing consanguinamory initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction, I recommend the GSA Forums.  This new forum is ONLY for discussing Genetic Sexual Attraction, not consanguinamory between people raised together or by one another. It is a FREE, welcoming, supportive forum run by people who have much experience discussing GSA and helping people experiencing GSA. Again, please read the rules.

Another free place to discuss GSA is the private Yahoo GSA Group. You have to ask to join, and you may or may not be added.

Do you know of any other forums that are free and not overrun with spam and other noise?

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Posted in: allies,consanguineous,GSA,help,incest,solidarity

An Addition to the Glossary: Consanguinamorous

I am bumping up this entry.

I have made some minor changes to the Glossary, and added a couple of terms. Since this blog began, I have favored the phrase “consanguineous sex” over the word incest to describe consensual sex between close relatives. This has meant writing “consanguineous couples” as opposed to “incestuous couples.”

I now think a better word is the word consanguinamorous. It’s a long word, but it may be useful in describing love or eroticism between close relatives. It implies the inclusion of sexuality, but that may not be so. Consanguineous sex can be expected between those who practice consanguinamory; couples, triads, or quads who are consanguinamorous. Some people would call this “intrafamilial sex” or “hyperendogamy.”

Please note that as always, this is referring to consensual sex, not to sexual assault, rape, statutory rape, child rape, or child molestation.

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Posted in: consanguineous,terminology

Dear Margo Advice Column Addresses Twincest

Dear Margo, scion of a famous advice columnist Ann Landers and quite the advice columnist herself (her cousin carries on the Dear Abby column) got a letter that is of interest to readers of this blog, from someone who is concerned that her younger siblings (adults) are likely incestuous.

"Big Sis" wrote in...

I have a younger brother and sister who are twins, and I’m concerned about them. Several years ago, he had cancer and moved in with her while he was in treatment. He recovered and is doing great, but here’s the problem. He never moved out, and the two of them bought a house together, take trips together and go out together. It’s really creepy. I’ve been in their home, and they have separate bedrooms, but I think that’s just a ruse. Neither of them dates anymore, but with all of the available people out there, couldn’t they find someone? I’m worried they will be discovered, and it will hurt them and our whole family. Is there an answer to this?

So she took care of him while he had cancer. How beautiful. Sounds like they really love each other. So they are not dating other people anymore. How likely it is it that BOTH of them have no sex drive and no desire for a sexual/romantic partner? It's possible, but the odds are slim. It is more likely they have found everything they want and need in each other, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It is understandable that the letter writer is concerned, given the lingering prejudices and discrimination against these consensual relationships. She should read this. It is also possible that the letter writer is just a wee bit jealous.

Dear Margo's response...

What, exactly, is the question? You have decided this is an incestuous situation based on circumstantial evidence, as far as I can tell. It may be a love affair of the narcissistic, unhealthy kind, or it may be that they gave up looking for partners and decided they like doing things together.

It is not narcissistic or unhealthy for them to love each other in every way. Twins are distinct people. They would be loving each other, not being narcissists.

Then, too, as the child of a twin, I can tell you there is a different, perhaps stronger bond than singletons. It is not usually sexual when siblings decide to live together.

Dear Margo is admitting that sometimes, it IS sexual.

Because you are concerned, however, you might mention that from the outside it looks like a romance and you are concerned. Whether their response is defensive or they just laugh will give you a clue — though they might be legitimately offended. And really, it is their business. Should your worst fears be the reality, it is no reflection on your family.

She got that right.

Really, the only reason someone else should bring it up to is congratulate them on their happiness and offer support. I mean really... do you think people in love are going to say, "Oh look, someone else not in the relationship doesn't like that we are happy together. Let's split up!"??? If she wags her finger at them they could very well drop her from their lives.

Big Sis, I urge you to simply show love and support to your siblings, whether they are consanguinamorous or not, they are happy together. Let them be!

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Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,incest,love,media,prejudice,siblings

Did Valerie Spruill Experience GSA?

Most people who experience Genetic Sexual Attraction are aware of their genetic relationship, or have reason to believe it is a possibility. Others, though, fall in love with a strong feeling of attraction, build a life together, even marry and have children only to discover their close genetic relation later.

I like to point out that what matters most is how the people in any relationship treat each other. If they are right for each other, if they love each other, if they treat each other well, what does it matter what their races, genders, ages (provided they are adults), or level of consanguinity are?

Bob Dyer, Akron Beacon Journal columnist (Ohio, USA), brings is the story of Valerie Spruill and the marriage she had. It starts off with a negative approach...

Valerie Spruill (Phil Masturzo/Akron Beacon Journal)

The next time you think you’re having a bad day, image how Valerie Spruill felt when she discovered that her husband and her father are the same person.

And what exactly is the problem? I know there are people going "eew!" but why? They aren't attracted to their fathers or daughters because the Westermarck Effect has repelled them. Or they hate their father or daughter. But that wasn't the case here. They were attracted to each other and loved each other. So what is the problem?

It wasn't until after her husband died that a relative told her that her husband was her genetic father and Valerie was able to confirm with DNA evidence.

Not that her life had been a breeze four decades earlier when she found out at the age of 9 that the man she thought was her father was actually her grandfather, and that a person who had been identified as a “family friend” was actually her mother.

Spruill didn’t learn until later that her mom also was one of three “night ladies,” as she terms it, who testified in the infamous 1980 corruption trial of Summit County Probate Judge James Barbuto.

Why would anyone volunteer this kind of information?

Because Valerie Spruill wants to be an example. The 60-year-old Doylestown woman wants to show other folks born into miserable situations that they can still lead good, productive, fulfilling lives.

Good for her!

Now retired, she worked for 34 years in the accounting department at Goodyear. She has three kids and eight grandkids.

Again, good for her!

Fortunately, Spruill has been working with a therapist since she found out. She praises the therapist for helping her realize she did nothing wrong.

 Of course she didn't.

The man in question, Percy Spruill, died in April 1998 at the age of 60. Born in Mississippi, he worked in Akron as a truck driver and, later, as a parking-lot attendant at Morley Health Center.

He and Valerie’s mother hooked up when he was only 15.

We’re not sure how many offspring Percy Spruill helped produce, but at one point, apparently, he figured that one of them would be a suitable spouse.

Although Valerie says she is not 100 percent certain he knew, because he never talked about it, she strongly believes he was aware of the taboo he had committed but was simply afraid to tell her.

If they loved each other, why did it matter? The article does not mention him being a bad partner.

The article does not mention other marriages or relationships or how old they were when they were married, but I would think it would have mentioned that she had all or any of her three children with him if she had.

The story was picked up by dailymail.co.uk, which calls the story "horrifying." It was then picked up by inquisitr.com and huffintonpost.com, which brought up the case of our friends James and Maura.

Examiner.com's Yvonne Jessey cites this story to advise people to know their family history.

Not too many people know every single person or know of everyone in their family tree. I strongly suspect that this will become further complicated when all those babies conceived by artificial insemination grow up and go out into the world, not knowing who is their biological parent or if that parent had other children. The chances for committing incest are astronomical...

Everyone points and gawks. But what was the problem, really? It is all really unnecessary. As long as they enjoyed each other, which should some lingering, outdated taboo mar that memory? Other than the stigma, there isn't anything that was actually harmful about their relationship. The stigma serves no valid purpose, so the stigma shouldn't be perpetuated.

Finally, note that Ohio does not criminalize consanguinamory between consenting adults except when it comes to parents with their adult children. In other words, siblings, uncles & aunts with their nieces and nephews... that's legal, but parents with their adult children is still illegal, presumably because of Discredited Argument #20 (power differential). But he never functioned as her father and she didn't know he was her father, so he didn't have that power over her.

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Posted in: boundaries,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,love,media,Ohio,prejudice,reunion,stigma

Dreams

Over at thefrisky.com, 10 "common" sex dreams got a brief explanation of meaning. I'm not sure their explainations should be taken too seriously. Their explanation of incestuous dreams only takes the approach of waking incest being predatory (rape, molestation), unfortunately.

Incestuous sex dreams are by far the most disturbing and hardest to shake off when you wake up.

Certainly if they involve predatory behavior. Although, they had a separate interpretation for rape dreams. Dreams with consensual incest may not be disturbing at all.

Before I go any further here, I should note that if you had a real-life experience with incest and are having dreams about it, you should seek professional help.

If you've never been a victim of incest, dreaming of sex with a family member can mean a few different things -- none of them insidious. Sex with a parent may have to do with transitioning into adulthood or becoming a parent yourself. Sex with any family member can be about acceptance, deep forgiveness, a longing to be closer or heal a rift.

And what about people who have experienced or are experiencing consensual incest? This blurb takes the approach of ignoring that reality.

Apparently having forgotten about the term "gay," here's what they had to say about "homosexual sex"...

If you are not homosexual in your waking life, but dream of having sex with someone of the same sex, it's about your self-esteem. Depending on how the dream plays out, this same sex dream is about loving parts of yourself that you've been less than accepting of. Homosexual sex with a friend may be a commentary about some rift between you, insecurities about the friendship, or some quality or talent they have that you emulate. Don't worry, it doesn't mean you secretly want to sleep with your best friend.

Yes, don't worry even though it would be so horrible to have sex with someone you get along with so well, especially if that would mean you are... homosexual... or bisexual.

Finally, here's what they said about a dream featuring sex with a stranger...

Carl Jung had a theory that every man and woman has an animus or anima. An animus is the male energy of a female and the anima is female energy of a male. Sex with a stranger of the opposite sex has to do with the state of your animus/anima. It's about balance, about merger of the male and female aspects of yourself. And actually, sex with a stranger in a dream, given that it is not scary or traumatic, can be quite a fortuitous sign of personal growth.

Growth is good, right? As long as it doesn't involve sex with, you know, your best friend or your sibling. At least that's what I've picked up from their dream interpretation. I'm sure there are better, more thorough explanations for various dreams. I need to crack open some books I haven't opened in a long time.

Keep in mind that sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Now if you'll excuse me, the folks at the frisky.com are going to read the bumps on my head.

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Posted in: consanguineous,incest,LGBT,media,prejudice,same-sex

A Polyamorous Woman Writes of First Play Party

Polyamorists are not necessarily swingers. (Note: consider all links in this entry after that one NSFW.) Many poly people are in closed polycules and members of that polycule only date and have sex with people within that polycule. Some poly people do swing, however. Zoe is polyamorous and wrote about her first swinger party, which she checked out because one of her lovers is a swinger.

Guy and his wife tried to prep me as best as they could. He talked to me about what the physical layout would be (i.e. social area, public area with toys laid out, private bedroom), gave me a run down on who he expected to be there, even tried to help with my most worrisome question – what to wear.

What did she wear?

After careful consideration and an unplanned shopping trip, I found something that was cute, fashionable and had my daughter’s seal of approval, “Oh, mom you could so wear that clubbing!”

Okay.

I staked out a spot on a futon in the social area and watched while people arrived. I was introduced to all of them either by Guy or by simply being in that area.  Everyone was extremely friendly.  It was in that moment that I had my first epiphany of the evening (yes there were several), “It was all so NORMAL.”  It was absolutely normal party behavior; a group of people getting together and being social. It was almost as if they could have flipped on a movie or fired up a barbeque.

Yup. Polyamorous people and swingers are the people next door, the people at the PTA meeting, the people delivering your mail, the people stuck in traffic next to you. Dear reader, you know some poly people and some swingers whether you know it or not.

All in all there were about 10 couples there as well as 2 single females and me.
They were dressed nicely.  Many of the women wore stockings. Guy’s misses was the only one in what could be considered fetish wear (corset). But it was not so much as them dressing to look sexy so much as wearing something that made them FEEL sexy  (epiphany number 2).

After awhile, many people went downstairs, something about knot tying instructions.  

 In part two which is definitely NSFW, she wrote...

After gathering my courage, I crept downstairs; my heart pounding, my fingernails digging into the palms of my hands; turned the corner and saw a bunch of people fully clothed sitting around talking. All so freaking NORMAL; normal except for the table laid out with a spread of sex toys of all shapes and sizes along with a large pile of towels and condoms, but Guy had shown me that anyway and we had played “show and tell” with most of them on a previous date. 

 So how does that all move on to something more exciting?

When his co-host came up and started talking, I realized that he was actually interested in me. Perhaps he was just being the good host or wanting everyone to be comfortable, but I went with it and took Guy’s suggestion about having his co-host give me a massage.

Wow.  I have heard people boast that they are good at massages but I swear this one has magic fingers. Magic fingers that began to drain the nervousness and tension right out of my body; or would have if the lace on my fancy new shirt wasn’t rubbing into my skin. That had to be rectified. My shirt came off with little thought.  I am not modest and finding myself face down on a bed in the public play area sans shirt, seemed about as natural (and necessary) to me as nursing my daughter while walking the aisles of Sam’s Club. I would like to interject here that I was not the only one in a state of semi-undress but if I recall correctly (which I may well not), I was.

Closing my eyes, I let his fingers wander my back and shoulders. He was using an oil that smelled nice and made his fingers glide over my skin. We visited while my body turned into butter. At some point he asked if he could remove my bra.  And at some point he kissed me.

Her recounting of the evening goes on to get quite graphic and hot. It has a happy ending... so to speak. Swinging is obviously not for everyone, but some people enjoy it. Consenting adults should have that freedom with their own bodies.

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Posted in: boundaries,group,polyamory,swinging

Three Loving Relationships That Face Discrimination

It seems like every week now I want to post some things from Kindred Spirits forum, which is the best place I know of to discuss consanguinamory. Below are things written by three people who each in relationships that would be subject to prosecution, persecution, discrimination… you name it… in so many places. (If you want to join the forum, please be sure to read and follow the rules or you'll be dropped.)

A woman I’ve quoted before, who is in a spousal relationship with her brother, wrote a profoundly touching entry…

Just the other day my elder sister said something that really got me thinking, and I started wondering if what she said could actually be true.

She said to me “You know what sis, you were born to love your brother”. When I asked what she meant by that she told me how she had always felt as if me and [my brother] were just made for each other, even before we started into a relationship. Well obviously this got me thinking on this, and after talking things over with [my brother], I have to agree with her statement.



Now obviously you know a bit about my relationship with my brother, but I have never really opened up fully about it before, so here is our life, then you can decide…. Were we born to love each other?

Well how to start? I guess I have to admit the reason I see things differently to a lot of people these days. [We] were born and brought up in the middle of the Scottish highlands, so our life was not so surrounded by a commercial world. The picture below really is the whole village, so when we started into a relationship together it became increasingly difficult to hide away from being found out.

So how long have I loved my brother? Well the truth be said, I have always been close to [him] for as far as I can remember, but just after joining high school I started seeing and feeling things that I had never noticed before, simple things like how he would always be the first to take my sister out for a while etc. So you are aware, my sister has cerebral palsy, so she wasn’t able to get out easily by herself. I started noticing the real caring nature that my brother had, the love he had for life, no matter how sick he got himself, I just felt so safe and warm in his presence.

She explains that her husband has had ill health all of this life, sometimes very serious illnesses, and they expect him to die of one of them.

Even though I have seen [him] get so ill through the years, it has never stopped me from loving him for the man he is. Yeah I guess we started our relationship early on in life, and we hide it well for 4 years before we got found out by mum and dad. What a shocker that was, there we were hiding away, and we made the terrible mistake of falling asleep. Mum and dad came back and found us both naked, asleep and well how to put this…… intimately bonded. So there really was no way we could hide our relationship any more. Like everyone else it caused a lot of problems, arguments etc and it came so close to breaking not only us as a couple, but as a family too. Eventually mum and dad realised that we had been together as a couple a long time and instead of trying to destroy what we had, they helped build us to the couple we are now.

That is the best approach. Kudos to her parents.

They gave us our own room while [he] went to university, they supported the times when he got ill etc, but we knew we wouldn’t be able to hide away from the village forever, so eventually we moved to Edinburgh and set up home together, and [he] was able to start his career helping others.

She goes on to detail the very admirable work that he does; she is essentially his personal assistant.

Now who couldn’t fall for someone with such a caring and loving heart like that?

So now we have been ‘officially’ a couple for 20 years, by that I mean since we got caught out, even though we have loved each other a lot longer. It hasn’t come without costs though. We had to move to a city even though we both hate them, we have lost a brother because of sibling jealousy, You get the picture.

So….

Have I ever been out with anyone else? NO.

Have I ever wanted to be with anyone other than my brother? NO

My brother…really is the only man I have ever been with and ever want to be with, I simply can’t be without my darling brother. To me though he isn’t my brother now, he is my husband, and always will be. I will be there every time he gets ill, I will stand by his side through all the stresses and strains of his work, and hospital life, and why? Simple….. I love him with all I am and ever will be, what better reason is there than that.

So back to the original question, was I born to love my brother? Oh yes!!! And I know he was born to love me too. Maybe you will not agree with this, but this is what I believe.

In what could be a case of Genetic Sexual Attraction, this woman writes from Ireland that she is in love with her uncle, with whom she has a daughter. She met her uncle after her mother died.

…it moved to sex within months but that freaked both of us out and we fought against this thing for a while before waking up to the fact that it was making us unhappy…We have tried living together and living apart but its like being half of a whole and this year we finally said enough and moved away. we now have a home for ourselves and our daughter and I feel like finally things are normal and good

In another posting, she wrties…

At the end of the day I love [my uncle] and he loves me. we have a child together, live together years, share a bed, if I need anything for [our daughter] or for me he will do his best to see he gets it for us with God's help, if he is ill or anything I am there and he is there for me, we do all the same things lovers do in the system but we can't wed seems mad to me that 2 adults knowing what love is and who they love cannot make this love legal before God and man when any couple who just met half a day ago in Vegas can go get hitched to each other in some love chapel

It suks that marriage can be denied anyone for no good reason by someone else rejecting the life choices and lifestyle and LOVE those two people have together.

She concludes that entry…

Ultimately…we will do what we need to do, and change our lives countless times if it means we are together but also ultimately it would be nice to have it accepted that what we feel and what we do in bed and out of it is our own choice as adults. Love is love and hate should have no part of that experience we should get the chance to be a family in the sight of God

Of their child, she writes in another message…

we have a child aged 3 she is still too young to explain anything much too yet but she sees us together and she knows how loved she is and I hope she knows how much I love [my uncle] and he loves me so the way I see this is ....... either we will do a good enough job of explaining our love for each other by living it day by day or we wont . I am hoping she will " get " it

Finally, this comes from a man…

After a 7 year marriage, I became a single father of a 7 year old boy and a 5 year old girl. I raised them the best I could....I helped with homework, went to ballet and piano recitals, put food on the table and clean clothes on their backs. There was no other family for a support system. The three of us made it through the chicken pox, bicycle wrecks, the talk, driving lessons, high school, and puppy love. I didn't date at all until my youngest went away to college. I didn't click with anyone and went on a lot of first dates and not many second ones.....just didn't have the desire. I was alone for the first time in my life and threw myself into my work. I started a new business and went to see the kids at their colleges regularly. My son graduated and landed a good job. He now lives half way around the world with his new wife.

[My daughter] graduated from college and works as a manager for a big box chain electronics store.

Both children had a very normal childhood and are very well adjusted.

Four years ago, [my daughter] got engaged to be married to a man she had dated for about a year. We planned the wedding of her dreams. About a month before the wedding day, she and I were talking about the final wedding preparations and she told me she didn't want to get married. I, of course, supported her decision.

She wanted to move to the town where I was and she was able to get transfered and keep her job. She moved in with me (had her on part of the house) and she seemed happier than ever. One night, she crawled in bed with me like she did as a child when she was scared. After that night she would sleep in my bed a couple of nights a week. One morning, I woke up to the feeling of her hand on me "there" and I had wood. I jumped out of bed and locked myself in the bathroom......I felt so wrong.

I couldn't look her in the eyes for days. The next time she came to bed with me, I put on sweat pants. The next morning, I woke up very early and left the house without a word. That night, [she] came to my bed again straight from the shower.....she cuddled up next to me like she never had before and again, put her hand "there". I didn't stop her. The next day I felt so guilty. She came to my shop and we talked in the office. She kept telling me that she loved me like she could love no one else and wanted to be more than my daughter. I refused to listen and went back to work. At dinner that night she was insistant on talking about us. I refused her for 4 months....she didn't let up. One night, I came home from work very late. She was in a very sexy nighty and had a bath drawn for me in the big claw foot tub I had just installed in the house a few days before. I gave in. I felt her love was pure and I really love her too....more than a daughter.

We have lived as a couple for 3 years. It hasn't always been easy, she is the backbone of our relationship. Each time I freeked out, she would talk me through it. Now, it feels normal. There is 22 years difference in our ages. We have had a few awkward moments, but we have gotten through them together.

We now are just a normal couple.....we go out to dinner, we get groceries, we just finished remodeling the entire house ourselves, and we work in the yard.....just a normal couple.

These people are all in loving, lasting relationships. A brother and sister, an uncle and niece, a father and a daughter, all of them love each other, make love, have sex, whatever you want to call it. They care for each other and look after each other. They are sharing their lives and should not be denied their rights just because of who they love. They should not have to hide. They should not be denied their right to marry, if that is what they want. They could be your neighbors, your co-workers. Isn't it ridiculous that there are supposedly free and progressive countries where they could be thrown in prison for loving each other, in addition to being denied their right to marry? This is why this blog exists: every adult should be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults.

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Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,Ireland,love,siblings,UK,uncle-niece

Tuesday in Elizabethtown, PA

Something that might be of interest if you'll be in or around Elizabethtown, PA this coming Tuesday...

At 8 p.m. Tuesday, Sept. 18, Elizabethtown College Associate Professor Kimberly VanEsveld Adams offers explanation to “‘This Brother Who Was not a Brother’: Incestuous Affinities in Wuthering Heights.” Early marriage definitions were different than today, and a number of Victorian writers thought that a good one began as a brotherly-sisterly relationship, but not between actual siblings.

 
Event Website

Sounds interesting. As I have blogged numerous times, stepsiblings, adopted siblings, and long-lost (or not) half siblings and full siblings can go on to have happy, healthy, lasting spousal relationships.

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Posted in: academia,brother-sister,freedom to marry,media,siblings

Father-Son GSA

I am bumping up this entry dealing with Genetic Sexual Attraction because it is just as relevant as ever.

Someone calling himself Saul wrote to Miriam Stoppard’s advice column…

When I was in my teens and still thought of myself as straight, I had a brief relationship with a girl. Now, 20 years on, I've been contacted by the son I never knew existed and he's gay like me.

I think it's great he's happy with his sexuality and I love having him in my life - it's like being with my younger self.

What really bothers me is I've started to become attracted to him. A 15-year relationship ended last year and I hate myself for thinking the things I've been thinking. What should I do?

Saul should be careful. As with attraction in another other case, the feelings might not be mutual or even if mutual, the other person may not want to act on them. Saul does not indicate that he thinks it is best for him not to act on his feelings, though he did write that the feelings bother him.

If he isn’t open to acting on his feelings, then he should not tell his son about them, and instead seek advice on how to cope from people who have been through the same thing at this website. Most people, at some point in their lives, have attractions that they do not express, at least not to the person to whom they are attracted.

Maybe there just needs to be more time, and the feelings will go away.

However, if they don't and if Saul is open to acting on that attraction, then he should be as cautious as he would be in any other delicate situation, such as with a friend or coworker, but keep in mind that there is much prejudice.

For example, the columnist writes…

You must resist the temptation to express your feelings for your son by touching him sexually.

Why? If they both want it, then they are consenting adults. They don’t currently rely on each other; one is not the boss, landlord, or legal guardian of the other.

This would be incest and you would create disastrous, complicated, serious problems for yourself and your son.

The only problems I can think of, besides the normal risks inherent in sexual relationships, is prejudice. Remove the prejudice, and suddenly there aren’t so many problems.

Fate has placed him in your path and you should fulfil your destiny and be his dad.

The young man is an adult. If he doesn’t have a “dad” already, then Saul can be both his father and lover. How about opening up that mind a little?

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Posted in: boundaries,consanguineous,father-son,GSA,LGBT,media,reunion,same-sex

Nick Cassavetes and the Naked Emperor

Full marriage equality and relationship rights in general are advancing, and it is scaring the bigots. More countries and US states are embracing the limited same-gender freedom to marry, Utah's law against simply living together is being challenged, Brazil is recognizing polyamorous relationships, Showtime has raised the profile of polyamory, and major Hollywood filmmaker Nick Cassavetes has depicted a consanguinamorous relationship and defended such relationships in general, and those of all consenting adults.

Granted, Cassavetes would have been done better by not mentioning the same-gender freedom to marry, and rather just stuck with discussing consenting adults in general and their relationship rights, but he should be cut some slack. He's not a rights blogger who has dealt with these issues in precise language every day, and he's an ally for full marriage equality and relationship rights in general. He has pointed out that the emperor has no clothes, and people are having fits.

Let's look at more of the reaction to his comment. Anti-equality Darleen at proteinwisdom.com frets...

The whole of history of humans organizing in groups and moving into civilization is the story of humans overcoming their natures and baser instincts.

Now we witness a whole political ideology dedicated to tearing that down, to telling people to indulge their nature, to do whatever “feels good,” feel no shame and demonize anyone who should hold a different view.

What is wrong with people being who they are? Are we supposed to avoid doing things we like, just because we like to do them? People who hate others for being who they are and enjoying their lives should be called out. People who want to deny rights to others should be called out. Darleen also tries to link in preying on children to consensual adult sex. Sorry, Darly, two completely different things.

Abraham Tomo Jr at newnownext.com reported in an article with a misleading headline of "The Director of ‘The Notebook’ Compares Incest to Gay Marriage"...

We think we know what he was trying to say and that he didn’t mean any harm, but isn’t it the worst when people and critics compare gay marriage to all things deemed unnatural? We understand he’s trying to support his movie and his stance of “love who you want,” but he could’ve chosen another analogy other than gay marriage.

Bridgette P. LaVictoire at lezgetreal.com wrote "Nick Cassavetes is an Idiot Linking Homosexuality and Incest."

Despite what Cassavetes says, incest is very abusive even when it is at its most benign.

Why do people have to trash consanguinamory? Simply point out that most consanguinamory is heterosexual and thus it isn't the same thing as being gay or lesbian. LaVictoire goes on to cite the problems of some of the children of Patrick Stübing and Susan Karolewski, some of the ancient Egyptian royals, and Charles II of Spain, essentially making Discredited Argument #18 . Cassavetes specifically excluded having children. She also invokes Discredited Argument #20. It's fine if she just wants to stay focused on the same-gender freedom to marry for lesbians, but I wish people would refrain from throwing other people under the bus who are also looking for the freedom to marry, or even just be together.

At sheknows.com, Cassavetes' statement is included in a grouping of "stupid" celebrity quotes and possible reasons they were said. The insinuation is that he was looking for publicity.

Laura Donovan at mediaite.com says that he ruined her favorite moving by "saying we should treat incest like gay marriage." No, we should treat all marriages like marriages. That's equality!

I’ve been a staunch fan of touching romance, The Notebook since its 2004 release, so it’s with deep regret that I say the movie has been ruined for me by director Nick Cassavetes, who just said the “love who you want” attitude toward gay marriage should also apply to incest. 

 She then goes on to cite Discredited Arguments #3 and 18.

Danger Guerrero at uproxx.com wrote...

Actually, that’s a bit unfair. He’s not really saying “Gay marriage = Incest,” which would be, like, really bad. It seems like he’s trying to make the point that his film deals with a form of nontraditional love, and he’s using gay marriage as a reference point to get there. He just did it in a totally hamfisted way. What he probably should have said is something like “My film deals with a brother/sister relationship, which is one of our society’s biggest taboos. But if you’re someone who believes that you should be able to love whoever you want as long as you’re not harming anyone, I think it raises some interesting questions. Not that I support incest, or think it has any direct parallels to gay rights, but it is something worth thinking about at least.”

Scott Roberts at pinknews.co.uk wrote...

Although he may not have meant to offend the LGBT community, director Nick Cassavetes has done just that after placing incest alongside marriage rights for gay couples.

Dr. Keith Ablow asks a bigger question at foxnews.com: "Can sex between brother and sisters ever be normal?" I don't know if normal is the right word, because most involved say it is very special and nothing else compares. He invokes Discredited Argument #19.

They are enacting a drama that is really about having grown up in a household or in households that unleashed inappropriate, toxic sexual impulses—always, in my experience, because one or both of the siblings was exposed to child sexual abuse or was suffering with a severe mental illness.

Uh, Dr.? You're dealing with unhappy, traumatized people. Your sample is a wee bit skewed. People who only have positive experiences aren't going to run to you with their time and money and tell you about. But then the doctor starts rambling, throwing in paranoid homeless people. Um, yeah.

Amanda Chatel wrote at thegloss.com "Gay Marriage and Incest are Pretty Much the Same Thing, Right?"

While the point he’s trying to make is clear, he goes about it all wrong. For starters incest is, by most civilized people, considered a vile union between two relatives.

Sometimes it is more than two. Consensual sex is not vile.

It’s not only frowned upon, but is illegal in most places. (I could totally make an Appalachia joke here, but I won’t.)

Those laws need to change.

If brothers and sisters started f---ing, the human race would be kaput in no time.

Hmmm. She seems to write as though the only thing holding her back from jumping her brother's bones and having his babies, and only his babies, is the law.

At instinctmagazine.com, they write that he parallels incest with same-sex marriage

We get what he's trying to say here, "no judgment," "live and let live," yada yada, but drawing parallels between incest and gay relationships--even if they're loose comparisons that he means to be innocuous--is just a bad idea.

Uptonking commented...

So, first off, Cassavetes isn't referring to cases of incest where rape is involved or where it destroys a family. He's addressing those cases where a brother and a sister (not a father/daughter) love one another in a sexual manner (i.e. promoting his movie) - so there is no power play - no one is violating anyone. Also, keep in mind that there are GAY brothers who love one another in a sexual manner - and sisters, too (probably). Do I think that Cassavetes actually thought through his comments before saying them? No. Obviously not, or he would have realized that there was a better way to say what he was trying to say - which boils down to "love is for everyone". And yes, incest is not a pleasent topic and not one most people would like to be associated with - we get that, obviously Mr. Cassavetes does not. Condemn the man for faulty reasoning and a poorly constructed argument - but not his intent - which was not to harm. And I would also like to point out that pedophilia and other sexually deviant behaviors did not play a part in Mr. Cassavetes comments (although they did in YOURS). Ummm... one really needs to pick their battles these days. Just a suggestion. 

Fay Voshell at americanthinker.com frets...

Cassavetes' film will be hailed as "groundbreaking."  It will be followed up by another film featuring the tragic circumstances of two people who didn't know they were brother and sister, similar to the situation Oedipus Rex faced when he unknowingly married his mother and had children by her.  The film will show graphically explicit sex scenes between brother and sister, in order that the audiences get used to seeing incestuous relationships as sensually thrilling.  The brother and sister will later find out their relationship is forbidden but decide to continue anyway, as they are so in love with one another.  The film will end with them staying together for the sake of the children.  It will win the coveted Palme d'Or at the Cannes film festival.

We can hope.

Monogamous nonconsaguineous same-gender couples who say polyamorous or consanguinamorous people shouldn't have their rights as consenting adults remind of me heterosexual interracial couples and racial minorities who say that LGBT people don't deserve the freedom to marry or other rights. We need to stand up in unison against bigotry, not point to other people and say, "That's gross!"
The basic information of the story was also featured in all of these other places, which is good:

http://lgbtweekly.com/2012/09/11/hollywood-director-places-incest-alongside-gay-marriage/ http://movies.yahoo.com/news/toronto-film-fest-nick-cassevetes-incest-gives-damn-005022619.html
http://theinterrobang.com/2012/09/hollywood-director-says-incest-is-a-ok/http://bossip.com/643605/creepy-hollyweird-director-nick-cassavetes-says-incest-isnt-a-big-deal/

http://www.vh1.com/celebrity/2012-09-10/nick-cassavetes-incest-yellow-celebrity-quotes/

http://www.towleroad.com/2012/09/cassavetes.html
http://gawker.com/5942239/love-who-you-want-director-nick-cassavetes-says-incest-is-super+weird-but-also-fine
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/the-notebook-directors-bizarre-take-on-incest-if-youre-not-having-kids-%E2%80%93-who-gives-a-damn/

http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2012/09/10/top-hollywood-director-believes-incest-is-acceptable/

http://www.newser.com/story/153792/director-on-incest-who-gives-a-damn.html
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/09/10/notebook-director-nick-cassavetes-says-incest-who-gives-damn/
http://www.examiner.com/article/nick-cassavetes-on-incest-love-who-you-want
http://www.gossipcop.com/nick-cassavetes-incest-interview-brother-sister-sex/

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Posted in: allies,boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,freedom to marry,incest,LGBT,love,media,prejudice,same-sex,solidarity,stigma

Is it Ethical for a Lawyer to Have Sex With a Client?

Attorney Henry Baskin

Technically, the Michigan Rules of Professional Conduct do not expressly proscribe a lawyer from having sexual relations with a client.  The lack of a specific ethics provision, however, did not prevent the Michigan Attorney Grievance Commission from issuing a reprimand and assessing costs against well-known Birmingham attorney, Henry Baskin, for allegedly conducting a long-term physical relationship with a female divorce client.

We here at the Law Blogger know Henry, having worked with him on a few matters over the years.  So we are compelled to ask, Henry...Henry...of all the women you could persuade to, er, date you, why select a client; and a divorce client to boot?

The Attorney Discipline Board [a panel of lawyers assigned to decide Henry's case] had this to say in disposing of this matter:

Although there is no evidence of actual injury to the client, the potential injury under these circumstances is clear to any lawyer, and certainly to someone with [Baskin's] experience.

Never one to shirk the white-hot spotlight, Henry has publicly commented that he disagreed with the decision, and thought the matter should have been resolved privately long-ago; the relationship apparently was conducted from 1999 through 2004.  Henry also noted with some apparent pride, that his client was well-served in the divorce to the extent she received a record-breaking alimony award.

Perhaps this ruling will have some interesting future implications.  For example, what if the lawyer has a long-standing committed and pre-existing relationship with the client, say in a probate or commercial matter?  Obviously divorce clients are always going to be "taboo".  Or what if a lawyer represents his spouse?

The Attorney Grievance Commission always takes the unique facts and circumstances of a particular case into account.  We have to agree with this one.  Of all the people a divorce lawyer may elect to date, it just should not be from among the corps of that lawyers clientele.

So folks, beware of the horny divorce attorney!  Caveat emptor on that one for sure...

www.clarkstonlegal.com
info@clarkstonlegal.com

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Posted in: alimony,attorney,Attorney Grievance Commission,Birmingham,divorce,ethics,Henry Baskin,lawyer,sex

The Strongest Bond of Sibling Consanguinamory

Perhaps the most common brush with consensual incest that people have, aside from cousins, is rather tame interactions with their siblings when they are very young: skinny dipping, playing doctor, show me yours and I'll show you mine, going or a feel while roughhousing, truth or dare, etc. This is so common and not really a big deal. It is such a little deal that many people forget they even did it. For some siblings too old to be interested in childhood games, things can be a little more serious. The sibling bond, shared experiences, trust, curiosity, hyper hormones, proximity, privacy, convenience, and sometimes relative isolation combine to foster situations where some siblings experiment and explore with each other. Some of these have flings, some develop ongoing agreements/arrangements, some have love affairs, and some go on to be lifelong spouses, even if denied standing as such by the law. This can also happen later in life, as siblings comfort each other through the rough times of life, or simply have a wild night, or realize they belong together... societal prejudices be damned.

Kindred Spirits continues to be the best forum I know of to discuss consanguinamory between any adults, not only siblings, but other close relatives, too. But a couple of the admins there are women who are, for their intents, married to the brothers with whom they were raised. They have bonds that are unmatched by any other. These women are intelligent, attractive women and if you passed them on the street you wouldn't think they are odd in any way. (If you join the forum, be sure to read and follow the rules or you won't last long.)
    
As one admin wrote...

i was telling someone this morning that i feel it's a brothers birth right to claim his sister as his own, now that's just my way of thinking, but in a way she does belong to him anyway as a sibling, so taking her as his wife just seems like a natural step to me, course she has to be willing, guys may be surprised how attached a sister can become to him....

A second admin wrote...

Wether we have a right to be with the person who loves us back is taken away from us by society seeing this as nothing but a taboo.

We are all in our relationships because we see and feel the love like no other, we have a bond of being siblings so we know more about each other than most normal couples would, simply because we have been brought up together.

So for me, there really is nothing wrong that we want to be loved by the person who knows us best.

Do we have a right to claim them as our own? Isn't it more important that we claim the love we share together as our own more than the person? However saying that, like you, I would claim [brother's name] as my own, and I know he would claim me as his. I think that you have certain rights to claim the person you truly love, but as long as that claim doesn't become the ethos of you being together. What should be primarily there is the love you claimed together and still have every single day of your lives.

Personally speaking here, I can see why you would want to claim your brother as your own, and have the natural step and become his wife. Even though myself and [brother's name] have been together for all these years, I can't legally marry him, even though I would love to become his wife with all my heart and soul. It would only be natural for us both to feel this way as neither of us have ever been with anyone else. [brother's name] is my first and only love, same as I am his, and it will always be this way because of nothing more than the love we feel for each other, yet, we can't legally become husband and wife. Many would say that it's only a piece of paper that makes the difference, but that's wrong in certain aspects, as we can't declare our love to the world like normal married couples can, we have to hide away and do we have the right to keep doing this or is it being thrust upon us by people who don't wish to understand how close we really are?

The first admin added...

OOooo i can't legally marry my brother either, but in every respect i am his wife, and he's my husband, i know in this day and age it's strange to hear someone say she was claimed, but he did claim me and took me for himself...

and he had every right to do so...

to the rest of the world we will only be an unwed couple, but to each other, we are married....

No love is stronger than sibling love...

The second admin added...

That sounds so similar to our relationship.

Even though I am not legally marry [brother's name], in all pretenses I am his wife, and always will be. In our eyes I became his wife and he became my husband when we had an ancient celtic commitment ceremony by the loch. Even though this isn't legally binding, to us it was the next best thing to marriage.

So who do I see [brother's name] as more? My brother or my husband? Well that's easy Very Happy [brother's name] is my husband, the man I love with all that I am or ever will be, and that is way before I see the brother in him. I wear a wedding ring, I also wear the engagement ring he got me, and in both our eyes, we ARE and always will be husband and wife.

The first admin added...

Oooo we just had our own ceremony in our bedroom years ago and exchanged vows of never ending love for each other, and i do see him as my husband, except when he makes me mad, then his older sister comes out to put him in place haha....

She wrote in another thread...

OOoo i dunno.i have a lot of posts up on this site, what holds us together is our love for each other and the bond we share, we grew up together, we'll grow old together... The incestuousness nature of our relationship brings us closer, we know who we are and are hardly ready to let that go, we feel special and blessed, we go through life as siblings and man and wife, different roles that combine into a glorious relationship... Going through a difficult period, and we have been through many, only brings you closer together, brother and sister, husband and wife share those moments and learn and grow from them...

Haha yea i get mad at him, but even after all this time when i look at him, i see the young boy i fell madly in love with, we're also very traditional, he's the bread winner, where as i run our home and raise our daughter..

If there is such a thing as a match made in heaven, even though we're brother and sister, we fit that bill..... 

Few people will have relationships like this with their sibling; wholistic relationships of shared lives, love, sex, friendship, and kinship. But whether such close relatives want to marry, live together, or share recreational sex, that should be their decision to make. The disgust or beliefs of others should not interfere. To me, it is disgusting that lovers like this are denied their rights.

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Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,love,siblings