A Pansexual Woman Denied Her Rights

By my count, this is the twenty-seventh ongoing relationship I've covered through exclusive interviews in which the lovers are denied the freedom to be open about their love and are denied their fundamental right to marry. This one is with a beautiful Anonymous Woman who is polyamorous and consanguinamorous.

Read the interview below and ask yourself if there is one good reason her right to love the adults she does should be denied. There is some mildly graphic description of sexual activity.


*****


FULL MARRIAGE EQUALITY: Describe your background.

Anonymous Woman: I work in the film and television inudstry. I have a degree in Cinematic Arts. I currently homeschool a few children that aren't mine. I would say I'm from a middle to upper class background. My dad is from Europe and my mom is from Central America. My brother is my only sibling. I'm 37, and fairly pansexual, meaning I don't really care what gender someone is. I am tall and fit.



FME: Are you married or have you ever been married?

I have never been married and have no children. I want to have kids.


FME: You currently live with…?

Currently, I live in my parents' house. I do not live with my parents because they decided to move to another city, but wanted to keep the house in the family not sell it.


FME: How would you describe your relationship orientation?

Right now, what I have is a relationship with three people, a trans male-to-female girlfriend, my brother, and my sister in law. We have all been together a couple of times and they have all been with each other. It is difficult to call it an actual polyamory relationship because except for my brother and sister-in-law we don't live in the same cities. I am not saying I want or expect this to be the relationship I have forever. I do think given my pansexual orientation and need for affection that a polyamorous relationship of some type would be best. I am really pansexual. I like both genders and I like male-to-female transsexuals.


FME: What kind of relationship did you and your brother have while growing up?

My brother and I never had sex while growing up. I did spy on his liaisons with girlfriends a little bit. But not until the last couple of years did we have a sexual relationship. We apparently both had these feelings about each other but never acted on them. Who initiated the triad was his wife, however, not him and not me.

FME: How did that happen?

It basically started one night when they were over at my old apartment because they were in town and needed some alone time, and my parents' house was crowded. I was spying on them having sex and I was naked and they caught me masturbating to them. We were somewhat embarrassed and apologized and laughed and everything being awkward, and then rather suddenly my sister in law drops to her knees and begins to perform oral sex on me. That is how it all started.

The way that sort of worked was that my brother first got involved with us just watching. But after a while we just started playing with each other as part of the process, and one thing lead to another and we were f---ing each other that same night.

I always was attracted to my brother, and frequently said if he wasn't married and wasn't my brother I'd probably want to be his girlfriend. But I had never really thought about acting on it.

FME: Describe your relationship now. Are you siblings, boyfriend/girlfriend? What about the sex?

It is complicated. I don't know how to describe it. It is some of the best sex I ever had. It can be kinky but it's not always kinky. Except for that little detail about me having sex with my brother, it would probably be a lot less kinky. We don't have sex all the time. Maybe only 5 or 6 of these situations a year and usually not all four or us at the same time. I know that people will assume we're meeting every weekend and doing absolutely bizarre things but it's not like that. We see each other and interact more as family than as any other role. Even with my girfriend it has become less unbridled sex and more planning to have a family.

FME: Does anyone in your life know the full, true nature/history of your relationship and how did they find out? How have they reacted?

The polyamorous relationship is known about by some friends but is a complete secret to my parents. Their oldest daughter picked up that there is an occasional sexual relationship between me and her mother. The other kids do not now anything. The whole family understands I am bisexual. My parents are Catholic, and while they probably would rather see me meet a guy, they accepted that part of me. I used to be a drug addict do all kinds of illegal [stuff]. They managed to get me into recovery, and have been supportive of anything which is a legitimate lifestyle. They dread me falling back to being an addict more than any sexual orientation, and as long as I'm not selling myself they are okay with it. However, I do not think they would ever accept my brother and I as lovers.

FME: Having to hide the full nature of your relationship from some people can be a disadvantage. Can you describe how that has been? Are there any other disadvantages? Conversely, do you think consanguineous relationships have some advantages and some things better than unrelated lovers?

Here is a big advantage: several of us get to have several needs of ours satisified, including my girlfriend who, frankly, has a problem dealing with men but nonetheless has some attraction to them. We're all somewhat bisexual. We all love each other. It is safe... no diseases, no risks of violence, nothing like you would risk dating people you really don't know.


FME: Is this a closed group?

We are not closed, we are open to finding other people and are actually trying to do it, especially my girlfriend and I.

FME: Any plans for the future?

I made a decision for biological clock reasons to try to have a baby. My girfriend has offered to be the legal second parent for the kid and to use my brother as the sperm donor. There is the downside of slightly higher chances for birth defects but there is also a risk in that of waiting until my 40's or whenever I found a boyfriend. We're going to have a legal agreement drawn up stating that we are doing this so we cannot be charged with incest. There's laws against us f---ing each other but none against using a sibling for a sperm donor. An advantage of this is, we know where the DNA is coming from, in case a medical condition develops. And as well, when the question comes about as to how I had a baby artificially, we thought that having the "true parent" being her uncle than a total stranger would go over better.


FME: What do you want to say to people who disapprove of your relationship, or disapprove of anyone having this kind of relationship?

Well, we're all well into adulthood and we all love each other. It is safe, and it is an extension of our love for one another. This is something that developed in adulthood. We're all over 35. It meets needs we have as bisexual people better than going out and trying to swing.


FME: What's your reply to those who would say that this is one of you preying on the other (and that you can’t truly consent?)

What can't we consent to? I'm not being blackmailed or extorted. I'm not being raped. I can say no. In fact, shortly after this first happened I DID say no. But I decided I didn't want to say no anymore.


FME: Aside from the law, which I think is ridiculous, can you think of anything that would make relationships like this inherently wrong?

Yeah, if there was force or compulsion of any kind used in it.


FME: If you could get legally married, and that included protections against discrimination, harassment, etc., would you? Or is this a different kind of relationship than that?

That's complicated. Firstly, I'm a political libertarian and don't believe the state should be involved in marriage. Then if we did do that we'd have to consider my parents and my brother's kids. We aren't anywhere near that kind of a decision though even if it were possible.


FME: What advice do you have for family members and friends who think or know that relatives they know are having these feelings for each other?

Just don't try and shame people and make them feel guilty.


*****


There you have it. Consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone, but who have to hide their love.

Why should they be denied their rights? There’s no good reason.We need to recognize that all adults should be free to be with any and all consenting adults as they mutually consent, and part of doing that is adopting relationship rights for all, including full marriage equality sooner rather than later. People are being hurt because of a denial of their basic human rights to love each other freely.

You can read other interviews I have done here.

If you are in a relationship like this and are looking for help or others you can talk with, read this.

If you are a family member or friend of someone who is in or may be in such a relationship, please read this.

Thank you to Anonymous Woman for doing this interview!

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Posted in: bisexual,brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,LGBT,love,open,PCM,polyamory,pregnancy,same-sex,siblings,triads

We Get Letters

This blog is visited by people all over the planet, and welcomes comments and I also welcome your emails and private messages. Everyone once in a while I publish some of those messages in a blog entry, which is what I’m I’m doing here.

Responding to an entry on hostility towards as grandfather-granddaughter couple, Anonymous wrote...

I would like to see an unbiased discussion of the ethical issues involved in grandfather/grandaughter mutual erotic atttaction and expression. With the ready availability of contraception, the fear of consanguinous offspring being possible is set aside. The likely negative reaction from other family members is still a very serious issue as is that of friends, etc. If the granddaughter is at or above the age of consent, the "between consenting adults" rule s h o u l d reign, but the many negative consequences would seem to outweigh the "reward."

Serious study of consanguinamorous relationships would be great.

After "Intergenerational Relationships Can Work," Anonymous wrote...

My wife and I, both 62, are in a committed relationship with a 34 year old man. This has been the most energizing invigorating experience imaginable. Jealously has never been an issue, and my wife believes that she is the luckiest woman on the planet because we love spoiling the crap out of her. Although we two guys are not bi, we are completely comfortable hugging, kissing and cuddling in bed with my wife in middle.

I asked if Jenny Erikson was stir crazy after something she wrote at TheStir on polyamory, and IchigoRadiance wrote...

 

This really caught my eye. "I can only imagine the psychological damage to a child who has to live with a revolving door of his parents’ various love interests."

This right here really has nothing to do with polyamory. Actually it sounds a lot more like what my older childhood was like. When I was in my teens after my mother divorced her abusive husband, and my, at the time step-father, she dated other men. Sometimes she dated them for long times and sometimes she dated them for short periods. Some of them had their issues, hence why she would quit dating them, so up until my eleventh grade of school, you could consider her relationships somewhat of a revolving door.

Here's the thing, while at times things were a little unstable. It wasn't because of her moving on to other men, the problems were the men themselves. By moving on, she was dumping trash, trying to find a guy that was better than all of that, and she eventually found a man who she is happy with. But she never would have found him had she stuck with any of the jerks in an attempt to keep a "stable" life.

And stable isn't exactly the word I think this person is looking for. Instead, consistent is the word. When we still lived with my ex-step-father. We had a consistent life. It masked itself as stability, but none of us were happy. It was consistent, but consistently bad.

So if say she dated more than one guy, I don't think my life or our life in general would have been all that destabilized. It might not have been consistent, but it would have been preferable to that douche who used to be her husband.

Of course, to be honest. I saw that and immediately wrote this, I went back up and saw that you talked about the revolving door as well.

IchigoRadiance also commented on "Hate Adds Pain to Genetic Sexual Attraction"...

I agree, no matter whether you both eventually end up in a relationship or not, it is best to wait until she is older.

As for if the feelings pass. I can't speak for everybody, and I myself count as someone with GSA or just someone who fell in love with his younger half-sister. But after ten years, my feelings have never disappeared. At times they have waxed and other times they have waned. But they are always there.

Anonymous self-reported after an entry on self-reporting of consanguineous sex that the first time he had sex, it was with his sister, who was three years older than him, and that they've been sexual partners for more than 12 years now, but they don't want to live together, or marry. Another person added her experiences with her brother, which included some childhood experimentation and an adult encounter.

There were a few comments left after my entry answering how common consensual incest is. One Anonymous entry recounts experimenting with his older sister and eventually moving in together as husband and wife...

Eventually after about 5 years of soul searching and testing of our love relationship,we moved to our new home as husband and wife.In our new home we had our first intercourse.It was an incredible feeling to have my thing inside her.I still love and respect her as my elder sister and abide her decisions.I always want to love her as I know she wants me only.I never want to break this relationship of love, trust,and deep understanding.We both are extremely happy together and have never felt the urge to be with someone else.We both feel extremely sad whenever we are separated for just a few hours.Now I am 55 years old and she 62 ! It has been a long journey.We have 4 daughter,three are married and well settled.while the youngest is in school.

After the entry on why consensual incest is still illegal in many places, Anonymous wrote...

The society today is rather disturbing, i see no reason that relationships between to consenting adults be illegal. As i am a female currently in a committed relationship with my [brother]. We did not grow up together due to circumstances when we were children. but after 30 years of searching for my family i found one of 5 of my siblings and the day we met was like magic, i instantly felt a fire start to burn inside and it wasnt that of us finding each other after so long it was instant love. i have waited my whole life for this feeling and the moment i saw my brother i knew he was the one.. we dont have to worry about having children cause i am fixed and we just want to be together.. is there any place we can go and have a open relationship. it pains both of us to have to hid it from everyone.. 

Liz Smith, a longtime friend of this blog, commented on an entry about female animals who mate with their close male relatives...

All I will say is that inbreeding does not automatically lead to children with problems. I have talked with people who were inbred, or who had children with family members, and I have not heard of any who had problems as a result of it. I myself had a daughter with my brother and she has turned out just fine. I am aware that constant inbreeding, generation after generation, can possibly lead to problems, but often times it is not as big a problem as many make it out to be.

IchigoRadiance commented again after that entry, too...

When people bring up the mutated baby argument, they forget that most problems arose from several generations of inbreeding. Which coincides with what you said. Most children born from consanguinamory are healthy,

Those that use cases such as royalty don't realize that that is a case where inbreeding was encouraged if not outright demanded. Most of it was to consolidate power. In the modern day, under non-abuse, most people will not choose to date or have children with a family member, and the frequency is not to be worried about. In other words, I think we would have to require inbreeding for it to become a problem. As it is, tolerance and/or acceptance won't cause it.

The other part of the coin is that our technology has improved, so we can easily tell if the child will have problems.

If people want to support eugenics, they need to do so on a consistent level and base it on more practically. They don't really care right now about the child, just filling a moral quota to show off.

Liz commented on a couple of more entries. After "Ten Myths About Sibling Consanguinamory" she wrote...

It happened between me and my brother. Why? Not because of abuse, but because we were close when younger and as we got older we fell in love. I love him, and I wish the world would accept relationships like ours. We will always be together. We have a daughter and may have more children one day. I know that we will have to explain our situation to them and help them understand, but nobody is ever going to convince me that loving my brother is wrong because I know in my heart that it is right.

After "Consanguinamory and Reproduction" she wrote...

I am in a relationship with my brother. My story is available on this blog here. My brother and I have a daughter together. She is perfectly healthy and happy, and we do plan to have more children. I've chatted with many people who had or who were incest children and they turned out fine. I believe that the risks are simply not as bad as we have been led to believe.

After "She Has Been Denied Her Freedom to Marry," Anonymous wrote...

I love what you had to say it was hard for me and my son at first but now we enjoy so much in each other. We both have one thing that turns both of us on and that is we both like the idea of us having sex with other people to. My son and I enjoy seeing each other in that way, sharing one another's love with others at times or all at the same time. This is keep all between us all. I never knew their was other family lovers like us untill now. We have changed other family's minds on this matter, once they gave it a try they agree that incest can be the most loving thing in the world to have between family members and friends alike.

And finally, after "He's on Cloud Nine," Anonymous wrote...

My mother and I began a consanguniumaous relationship with my mother when she was 48 and I was 28. Her second husband was dying of cancer and in a moment of weakness we both gave in to our urges and had sex. We were a couple for nearly six years when we decided not to risk anyone finding out so we stopped living together.

Although my mother got pregnant with our child she had a miscarriage and even though we not trying for a child my mother and I were hopeful she would get pregnant again but she began menopause and that was that.
 

We are still sexually active, even today but, like most relationships it has changed to us getting together occasionally to remember the strong love we still have for each other.

Thanks again to all who comment or who send emails or private messages.

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Posted in: brother-sister,children,consanguineous,grandfather-granddaugther,GSA,mother-son,polyamory,polyandry,pregnancy,reunion,siblings

Sibling Rivalry or Sibling Revelry

I used to be active on a certain Big Online Portal's question-and-answer feature, answering questions related to full marriage equality and relationship rights for all adults, and occasionally questions about teenager sexuality. I still read what goes on there. Every once in a while, someone will ask a question like this...

I caught my siblings making out, what should i do?

I caught my 16 year old sister and 17 year old brother making out, I don't really know what to do. To be honest I'm very shocked, and a bit disoriented thinking about it. They're both pretty attractive, I don't see why they would shack up with each other when they could go out and get people who... aren't related to them.

I want to tell ma and pa, but they begged me not to, don't really know how to approach this situation, Or if I should just respect their privacy. I guess I'm just worried about their mental health, but I guess that's pretty unfair of me to assume something is wrong with them.

What do i do?

For all we know, the teens "making out" with each other are both half-siblings to the asker, and unrelated to each other, or they could be stepsiblings or adopted siblings. Or, they could be half or full-blood siblings to each other. (It might have even been a Genetic Sexual Attraction situation if the siblings have not been raised together.) Whatever their genetic, legal, and social relation, it isn't uncommon for siblings as close in age as they are, especially in their teens, to have such affection between them.

Also, we don't know where they live, and thus whether or not they live somewhere where it is legal for a 17-year-old and 16-year-old to have sex with each other.

Most therapists consider such sibling behavior, absent any coercion, force, or intimidation, to be mutual experimentation or exploration.

In general, however, my advice to someone in the asker's position is to:

1. Confirm this is a voluntary activity. If observing wasn't enough, ask the younger/smaller/less assertive/more needy sibling if they are being pressured, intimidated, coerced, or forced in any way.

2. Respect their privacy. Start by reminding them it's a good idea to be discreet and promise you will knock.

3. Protect and support them.

4. If needed, assist them in accessing contraception and health care.




Walking in on anyone "making out" with someone else can be unsettling, especially if you're uptight about your own sexuality. Walking in your sibling in such a situation can be more so. Walking in on your sibling doing something to which you have a personal aversion (in this case, making out with a sibling, but in other cases it might be group sex, or gay sex, etc.) can be all the more so. But just because you might not want to do something doesn't mean someone else shouldn't or is mentally ill for enjoying that activity or enjoying that other person in that way. There may also be some feelings of jealousy and sibling rivalry prompting some negative reaction.

As far as there being so many other people they could be with: that will always be the case with any relationship. There is always "someone else" any given person could be with, but that is no reason these two teenagers shouldn't be together in the way they want. They love, trust, and enjoy each other, and have something they would be unlikely to find in others. This is what is working for them. Trying to force them apart would only cause problems. They will either stop on their own, moving on to other lovers, or they won't, and will have to deal with the prejudices that exist against such love.

The advice for parents who walk in on such a situation is a little different if the parents are legally responsible for the lovers, and I tend to subscribe to "your house, your rules" to a certain extent.

Brandy likes to answer questions like these...

According to research I've seen, it's been estimated that between 25% to 50% of teenage guys would be gladly willing to engage in consensual sexual activities with their blood-related sisters if given the opportunity. Less than 1% of teenage females would be willing to do anything sexual with their brother, though. Your sister is simply in that smaller catagory. It doesn't mean that she's evil or twisted. As long as she hasn't been abused or molested, then she's probably emotionally healthy and mentally stable.

Brandy then goes on a bit of a tangent.

Aurélie also answered, giving her personal experience with the subject...

Well Charlie, what people want to do with themselves and with each other is their own business. No one is being harmed or defrauded by their activities.

Personally, I think that siblings enjoying each other's bodies is not wrong (as long as it's consensual).

My twin brother and I have been enjoying special intimacy and sexual fun together for 3 years (we're 17 now). We don't have sex, but we have a fantastic time french kissing and cuddling together without any clothes on. Sharing orgasms by rubbing our "down there" parts together is by far the best.

If our parents found out, then we wouldn't deny it. We'd tell them that we love and respect each other. We don't lie to each other, and we don't cheat on each other. There isn't any drama or jealousy. We've never been naked with anyone else, so there aren't any STD's.

And I was the one who suggested that we start sharing our bodies and have some intimate fun together. It was completely my idea. At first my brother flatly refused to believe me. He couldn't believe that I was offering myself up to him on a silver platter, and he was certain that my request was a prank or a set-up, or that one of my friends was hiding somewhere and would burst out and start laughing at him. I finally gave up trying to verbally convince him, so I just stripped naked for him. That's when he said "Wow! OK! Great!"

Would people prefer that I instead had chosen a classmate from school or gotten a serious BF who would have screwed me and then immediately dumped me when I was 14? A guy who would have lied to me? A guy who would have boasted about screwing me to all of his friends? A guy who might have given me an STD? Assuming 2 BF's per year, then by now I might have been screwed by 6 different guys already, so ask all of those same questions again 5 more times.

Because my brother and I have shared something very special together (and continue to do so), today we're still virgins and yet we're both wonderfully sexually satisfied. So are the activities that I'm sharing with my brother really that horrible? Not in my opinion. We both really enjoy it, and we both treasure the fact that we genuinely care about each other. We don't ever feel the need to wear masks around each other. The sense of complete freedom is awesome beyond measure.

Siblings are better off being intimate, practicing on each other, and enjoying each other... instead of allowing themselves to be lied to and used by unrelated STD-infested players and gold-digging b*tches who wouldn't give a crap about their feelings.

Finding your siblings together in this way does not need to disrupt the home. This sort of thing has gone on for all of human history, in every culture, in rural families and urban families, poor families and rich families.

People in consanguinamorous relationships like the one described in the question can find some support.

Also see Ten Myths About Sibling Consanguinamory

This entry addresses questions like Why would brothers and sisters have sex? Why would siblings have sex? I caught my siblings or brother and sister having sex; what should I do? I caught my brothers having sex. I caught my sisters having sex. Do siblings have sex?

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Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,FAQ,incest,siblings

Genetic Sexual Attraction, Incest, and Consanguinamory

To act, or not to act, that is the question.

As always, I am talking about consensual sex, not molestation, assault, or rape.

Close relatives may experience mutual attraction as a result of Genetic Sexual Attraction (GSA), Genetic Attraction, Familial Sexual Attraction, or some other experience or phenomenon. I’m addressing these together because they all involve close relatives. These things can lead to incest (consanguineous sex, or consanguinamory) in the form of sibling sex, parent-adult child sex, cousin sex, etc. It may also lead to marriage or spousal relationships. While all sexual activity related to these can be called consanguineous, GSA-initiated consanguinamory is a special subset and it should be noted that opinions of those who have been in such relationships towards non-GSA consanguinamory range from support to indifference to uneasiness to condemnation.

Speaking of GSA, there is a split in the GSA community about whether to act or not (or to stop acting). Many people who have experienced GSA, prior to having the experience, had never considered the possibility of being attracted to a close relative and may have thought the idea disgusting, but they found themselves attracted to a close biological relative anyway. Those in the GSA community against acting or continuing to act have various motivations; a bad personal experience acting on GSA, a priority of obedience to laws (even if unjust), their personal sexual mores, and perhaps for some, intense emotion about something they never had or can no longer have. They may very well think they are sparing others pain by urging them not to act. But others say the pain for them was in delaying the reality that they had been reunited with someone who was now their true love.

I deal with common arguments against the rights to share love, sex, residence, and marriage on this page. But just because one should have the right to share these things with a relative doesn’t mean they should share these things in any given case. That is the point of why I am writing this.

ALL romantic or sexual relationships are emotionally risky. Most do not work out, or most of us would still be in our first one. As with any relationship, you should be the one making that decision for you, not anybody else. Don't let others decide for you. There are trade-offs and emotional risks in any relationship. With a possible consanguinamorous relationship, there are generally pros and cons, and with GSA, there is likely to be pain and struggle no matter what course is taken. Ultimately, each situation can have different factors than others, but there are some general considerations I will address.

If there is mutual attraction, and that is a big if, there are many things that should be considered before becoming more physically intimate. Notice that to one extent or another, these apply to relationships with nonrelatives as well.

First, the cautionary considerations…



1. Is this person right for you, right now? In this stage of your life, are you looking for a spouse? A partner? A roommate? A date? A dance partner? A friend-with-benefits? Is this person a good choice for that? (With a GSA situation, you may not know until you spend more time with them; some other times, you already know they aren’t. If you have been with this close relative all of your life, you should have a fairly good idea either way, which is one of the advantages of consanguinamory.) We’ve all known people, perhaps ourselves, who have been attracted to someone who is all wrong for us, or at least we were wrong for each other in that stage of our lives. Nobody should voluntarily subject themselves to a toxic person, relative or not, and some people aren't toxic, but they just aren't right for you because of personality differences, lifestyle differences, and wanting different things out of life. With parent-adult child GSA, there is sometimes (not always) a good reason why the child was kept away from the adult, or given away by the adult; sometimes in those cases, things have gotten better in the decades since. Whether or not a person is right for you may have to do whether you are just looking for recreation, a release, to express your love, or satisfy a curiosity.

2. Is it cheating? I am against cheating. I also generally support keeping a family together. This means that if one has existing vows to another that preclude entering into this new (or new level of) relationship, especially if there are children being raised in that home, I would urge against it. In a perfect world, everyone would talk it over and the addition would be accommodated, but I know this would be extremely unlikely in a relationship where closed monogamy is expected, or even in open or polyamorous relationships where someone doesn’t want to give up status as the primary.

Genetic Sexual Attraction presents a special situation as overwhelmingly powerful feelings flood a person, often suddenly and without warning. There still isn’t much awareness about GSA. Thus, you can have someone who would not otherwise violate their vows to another/others do that very thing. For example, there can be a woman happily married to a man in monogamous, closed marriage, and she would never have an affair with a coworker or neighbor or the brother with whom she was raised. But one day she finds out she has a slightly older half brother or one her age, and upon meeting, they have a powerful attraction and start to spend a lot of time together and engage in constant communication. Just their mere emotional bonding may be threatening to her husband; all the more so if the relationship becomes sexual. There is the possibility that if the husband remains, his wife may return to monogamy with him. But there is also the possibility that she will leave him for her half brother.


3. Are you willing to deal with the possible fallout? Emotional relationships will always have fallout, but with consanguinamory there can be legal, professional, familial, and social fallout. This blog supports the right of consenting adults to share love, sex, residence, and marriage with any consenting adults, but the present reality is that consanguinamory is illegal in many places, and even if not illegal, not legally protected. It is also looked down upon by some who take it upon themselves to be concerned with the love lives of others. Thus, coming out or being outed may result in prosecution, discrimination, bullying, and jealousy on the part of others. These factors can be minimized through moving to a location where consanguineous sex is not illegal or not prosecuted, and/or where your biological connection is not known. Discretion can be absolutely essential. There are too many power-hungry people in legislatures and law enforcement (and it only takes a few) who want to interfere in the love and sex lives of others, and much hateful prejudice among others who will discriminate against and harass your family if they find out something like this

4. Is there a possibility of a sexually transmitted infection?


5. If this is heterosexual, has fertility, the possibility of pregnancy, and contraception been discussed?

Now, for some encouragement…

6. There ARE people in lasting, happy, consanguinamorous relationships, some with the support of family and friends; there are people who had positive experiences with youthful experimentation or play.

7. Consanguineous sex, consanguinamory, and consanguineous marriages are not new things, nor are they rare. The fact is, these things have been going on for literally all of human history in various cultures and every level of society. From the rich to the poor, royalty to commoners, educated to ignorant, urban to rural, young to elderly, close family members have done everything from engaging in playful experimentation to forming lasting spousal relationships. Consanguineous sex is normal, natural, common, and can be enjoyable and beneficial.

8. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you’re right for each other, don’t deny yourselves, deny each other, or waste the lives of others by entangling them in an effort to avoid your true love. As a wise person who has been there puts it, “I ran from the one person who would have supported and loved me for who I am, not who he wanted me to be, or for what I could do for him and my children and I have paid the price for two decades.” Fortunately, there is a happy ending in that case.


9. It can be a wonderful experience or even a deep and abiding love. If the situation is just a matter of curiosity and exploration, who better to learn with? But if it is more than that, be assured that consanguineous lovers often report that consanguinamory is deep and powerful; that other relationships pale in comparison. It is a special bond that brings happiness, a caring partner, and security. Who cares for you more?

10. In instances of GSA, it can be positive compensation for something that was lost and can never be regained.


If there is love; mutual attraction, trust, and respect; compatibility in availability, goals, personalities, personal styles and habits (notice that these may take some time together to determine); and the above considerations have been made, don’t let anyone stop you.

Refer your family and friends to THIS page.

You may want to check out:

Suppression Brings Ongoing Pain

Avoid Hurtful People

Hate Adds Pain to Genetic Sexual Attraction

You can also contact me through fullmarriageequality at yahoo dot com.

(Edited to correct errors and for clarification)

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Posted in: boundaries,cheating,consanguineous,FAQ,GSA,help,incest,love

There is Big Difference Between Love and Abuse

Candace Sutton had an article I found at heraldsun.com.au under the headline "The Australian Families That Hold Dark Secrets of Incest and Abuse." Unfortunately, for the sake of sensationalism, responsibility went out the window. This might contain triggers for some of you. Here's how the article starts...

BEHIND the door of an ordinary house in a working class Australian suburb, a man abused his three daughters over two decades, offering them to other men for sex and making them perform acts with animals. 

Inside at least three suburban houses in towns nestled in a major industrial Australian valley, one man started raping his 11-year-old daughter and then told her she was "damaged" and unlovable.

Sometimes he forced himself upon her twice a day.

For almost 30 years he kept her a virtual prisoner, fathering her four children who were all disabled.

A third case unfolded over four generations of a family which moved from state to state, always stopping in remote communities to avoid detection.

Eventually they came to rest in the hills behind a quiet rural village, where decades of inbreeding exploded into a horror story of degradation, squalor and rampant child sex under the approving gaze of three family matriarchs - a story which has shocked the world.

These are all terrible cases of child abuse, which involve various forms of abuse in addition to child rape. In this last case, the children would have had plenty of problems even if there has been no inbreeding.

Every week in communities big and small across Australia, children are sexually abused by their relatives.

And by people who aren't relatives. Either way, it is unacceptable.

The article goes on to detail child abuse situations. In the middle of all of that comes this...

Father and daughter John and Jennifer Deaves confessed on television their sex life was “absolutely fantastic”. Picture: Channel 9 Source: News Limited

Uh, What in the world is a picture and caption of a couple of ADULTS who had a CONSENSUAL relationship generated by Genetic Sexual Attraction doing in the middle of an article like this? I know Jennifer. You know what she is a victim of? Bigotry enshrined in law! In more than one way. This is not only offensive to adults who have loving, consensual relationships, it is also offensive to assault and molestation victims, because there is no comparing the situation of the Deaves to the abusive situations listed. This is highly irresponsible journalism. I doubt it was Sutton's decision, to be fair. She's just the person whose name is on the article and she probably didn't to the layout or headline.

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Posted in: Australia,children,consanguineous,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,media,myths,prejudice,prosecution,stigma

Hope

Bumping this up...

Earlier, I posted a roundup of comments recently left here on the blog. This one needed an entry all its own. It was a comment left after a recent entry I wrote on Successful GSA Relationships, responding to negativity from people at some GSA websites.

Sounds a lot like what I was told when I went looking for advice though I don't know if that was the particular place I got it or not. Essentially I was told to not to make any moves, just wait and eventually my feelings would go away as if it was just a phase. I was also pretty much told to be silent with regards to my condition. I actually complied, because it wasn't like I really had much of a choice. I mean, adults face 25 years [in prison] where I live, and while I am sure a minor would face less, I don't know how much. There was also the social stigma, to which I was already acquainted with from when I was even younger.

But let me tell you one thing, that advice was useless, and basically amounts to bottling up your feelings and throwing them under the bus. Their support was even worse, because after hearing them I felt even more alone than I had before. Everybody was out for themselves, all of their advice was basically to maintain the status quo of doing nothing, I was even told that it would be detrimental to tell anybody, which it could very well have been but many who might not want to go through with it would probably do a lot better if their family understood and was willing to help them. Such advice may have in fact isolated me and many others from help we need, either in regards to avoiding going through with it, or to actually go through with in as a minimally damaging way possible. Even worse, if somebody is looking for a way out then telling them there is no way out and you're basically f**ked regardless, and the only thing you can do is wait and pray your heart gives up on them, can you really call that advice? Can you really call that support? How is anybody suppose to get help when the helpers are just as condemning and demonizing as everybody else.

Either they hated themselves and it showed through their writing, or they were inexperienced in the area masquerading their trolling as advice. I felt that had they just told me that I was better off dead that it wouldn't have changed their antagonism much towards me (yes it felt as if they had something against me as a person rather than toward my question).

Around ten years later, and my feelings haven't "gone away" they weren't just a phaze, instead they have grown. My silence and and being alone in my struggle had a dramatic negative effect on my life. For several years I struggled with my depression. The past couple of years and especially the past few months I decided to discard my silence. Even if I stay anonymous, speaking out has helped me tremendously. I've found people that have supported me (though not personally due to anonymity), and I don't feel anywhere near as alone as before. By the same token, there have been people that have judged me (same as before, not personally due to anonymity), but I can see that their inexperience with the subject has clouded their judgment, their bigotry has lost most of it's power. Those that support tend to have had experience with consanguinamory, or knows somebody who has, and they learned that the arguments are inconsistent hogwash, while the bigots only have hearsay of cases where not all facts are known and bias is presented. Everything else is filled out with ignorance.

If anybody is reading this, know that whether you pursue a relationship with a relative, or you choose to avoid it: There are people that respect and support your choice. It's all about environment. I've been to both good and bad sites, and the good sites, I've stayed at, the bad ones I don't visit anymore or avoid as much as possible. This has taught me that there is more than one choice for environment, if you seek help and they tell you rubbish, there are other places that are far more helpful. You'll know a good environment is one you don't fear speaking in.

This is exactly why this blog is here: to let people know they are not alone, and to help them. There is a desperate need for counselors who have a supportive understanding of Genetic Sexual Attraction, and there will be even more need as the reality of today’s world mature into an increase in reunions and introductions. I am not a counselor by profession nor training. But I like to help others in whatever way I can, and I can do it by blogging and networking.

There is no good reason why the consanguinamous, whether brought together by GSA or not, should face discrimination for loving each other.

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Posted in: consanguineous,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,persecution,prejudice,solidarity

What Do Montana and Zambia Have in Common?

Both places criminally prosecute adults for consensual sex. We told you in this posting how a family was being broken up by the prosecution of siblings who had been living as spouses. Barbara Chanda gives this infuriating update at daily-mail.co.zm...

MINISTER of Community Development, Mother and Child Health Joseph Kasonde says the ministry is assessing the plight of the abandoned children of the incestuous couple of Serenje.

Dr Katema said it was unfortunate that the innocent children have been abandoned by their extended family and the community.

Their parents shouldn't have been taken away from them in the first place!

After Nicholas Mukuwa Bulaya, 38, and Bertha Chipapuka, 35, were arrested and charged for incest, their relatives and community abandoned the five children, who are now reportedly living on their own at their parents’ farm.

This problem is one the authorities have created for themselves, and children are suffering as a result.

And yes, Montana is still going ahead with a prosecution as well, one that we told you about in this posting. Emily Foster reports at abcfoxmontana.com...

A man accused of having consensual sex with his 19-year-old daughter pleads not guilty in Missoula District Court.

Russell Smith, 48, is charged with one felony count of incest.

Court documents show Smith moved from Alaska to Missoula to live with his daughter and her roommate.

The girl's roommate called police when she learned Smith and his daughter were having sex, and were planning to get married.

The roommate is a rat. Prosecuting adults for CONSENSUAL sex is ridiculous. Let them be together, and let them marry.

Two examples of why relationship rights and full marriage equality are needed for ALL adults.

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Posted in: Africa,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,Montana,prosecution,reunion

Is There Any Sexuality You Don't Support?

Someone asked me that question privately.

If by sexuality, one means gender identity or sexual orientation… I support people being free to be themselves, as long as they don’t force themselves on others (like predators of children).

Regarding sex…

I believe in the basic human rights of freedom of religion, association, expression, and assembly. Anything consenting adults do together should be up to them, and should not be something to be subjected to criminal prosecution, discrimination, or bullying. Nor should minors close in age be prosecuted or forced into “treatment” for having sex with each other.

I don't consider rape, assault, or child molestation to be "sex." I'm all for prosecuting for those.

I think if someone is at the age of consent for sex, that age of consent should also apply to being recorded or photographed. If someone wants to make videos of themselves to take pictures of themselves or let someone else do it, and they want to show it to others, and another person of the age of consent wants to view it, fine.

Regarding marriage…

I support the right to marry for everyone. An adult should be free to marry any and all consenting adults.

But…

My support of legal rights and protections does not mean I personally support all sex or marriages.

For example, I think it is a bad idea for, say, a woman who needs monogamy to have sex on the first date, and if a friend like that wants my "support" I would tell her no, it is a bad idea.

Another example… I think it is safe to say we’ve all known people who announced they were going to get married and we cringed (if only inside) because we didn’t think they were right for each other, or perhaps in a place in their lives where they were ready to be married.

I am also against cheating (but again, I don’t think it should be a criminal matter). Cheating is when someone breaks an existing vow to another through action, rather than informing the person(s) with whom they have the vow that the agreement is ending. There are married couples who have agreements that allow one or both of them to have sex with other people, and per those agreements doing so would not be cheating.

However, if someone tells me they are happily involved with their close biological relative, or two close biological relatives, and none of them are cheating to do it, then yes, I support them. I support happy, healthy same-gender relationships, interracial relationships, polyamorous relationships, intergenerational relationships (adults), and consanguinamorous relationships.

I am sex-positive. Sex is a good thing for many reasons. We’d be better off if more people were having more sex and sex that was more satisfying to them. So generally, I “support sex.” Those who don’t think sex is a good thing or talk as though it isn’t may be doing it wrong, or may have forgotten what it is like.

What about you? Are you sex-positive?

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Posted in: allies,boundaries,FAQ,law,marriage equality,solidarity

What Genealogists Know

With each previous generation you trace back, the maximum possible number of your genetic ancestors doubles. You can have 2 parents, up to 4 grandparents, up to 8 great-grandparents, up to 16 great-great-grandparents, etc.

On average, there are about four generations per century. For people born in the year 2000, their 8 great-great-grandparents were probably born around 1900. Sometime around 1800 their great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents were born (there may be up to 128 of them). About 29 generations back, or roughly around the time of 1250-1300, the total number of your possible ancestors for that generation equals or exceeds the total population of the planet, which was about 500 million people.

What gives? Well, first of all, if all 500 million of those people were your ancestors, they would also be the ancestors of all of the rest of us, too.

Secondly, you probably don’t have every person alive back then as your ancestor. There wasn’t a lot of interracial or intercultural parenting going on back then. People were more isolated, more people lived in rural countrysides rather than dense urban areas, and people were not nearly as geographically or socially mobile as they are today. It was very common for a person to be born in and to die in the the same village or town, having lived all of her or his life there.

This means that for many, many, many, many generations, there was a lot of what most people would call today “inbreeding.” If your spouse wasn’t your first cousin, your spouse was likely a second or third cousin, or a second cousin-once removed, our even your double-cousin, etc. And as I’ve noted before, even if they weren’t marrying them, people were having children with siblings, aunts or uncles, etc. (Even if not having children together, what do you think went on, given that pubescent teens, like most children, were usually sharing a bedroom?) Not only did these things not destroy humanity, but in Europe, the Renaissance was birthed in these conditions.

Coming back to around 1800, very few people are likely to have 128 great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents, just like very few of those people in 1800 had 128 of them in 1600. Because chances are, some of your recent ancestors were cousins, if not closer. If you marry your first cousin, you have no more than six genetic grandparents between you, instead of eight. If your parents are first cousins, you have six great-grandparents instead of eight.

If “inbreeding” was as detrimental as common misconception says, none of us would be here.

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Posted in: children,consanguineous,cousins,incest,myths,science,stigma

Discovering Polyamory Through People You Know

At thebigsmoke.com.au, Belinda Marsh has a piece on polyamory. Some names were changed to protect people from bigotry. It starts with coworkers...

One day, Ray asked, “You do know that I’ve got a woman friend, don’t you?”

He went on to say that he was married and living together with his wife and children, but that his wife knew about his ‘bit on the side’. Ray explained that they were in an open, ‘polyamorous’ relationship.

While this threw Angie initially, when Ray got a message from Liz, his wife, saying she had arrived at her lover’s house, she finally understood. She still found this confronting, but it was also liberating. Hearing that two adults could have an honest and open relationship with such a high level of communication was astounding to her.

When someone realizes they know polyamorous people, it can be eye-opening.

The groundbreaking book, The Ethical Slut, was written by Dossie Easton and Janet W. Hardy. Both women are practicing polyamorists. Having embraced this lifestyle in the 60s, Easton has lived the polyamorous lifestyle on an ongoing basis, even raising a child with her many different partners, some of who are more permanent than others.

She prefers to use the term ‘slut’ rather than polyamorous.

“We use that word very defiantly to open up people’s definitions of how powerful sexuality can be.”

They use the word slut to encompass all forms of open, honest and ethical sexuality, from swinging to open relationships to triads, quads and communities.

But how can we possibly love more than one person at once?

Most people do, at least at some point in their lives.

It's nice to see more and more media offering a basic explanation of polyamory.

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Posted in: open,polyamory

Frequently Asked Question: Why Do Polyamorists Get Married?

The question is asked as though the person asking assumes that actual monogamy is a requirement for marriage. It isn’t in most places, even though current marriage laws will only allow monogamy in the legal sense.

For the purpose of this question and answer, I will include any form of honest nonmonogamy, or any label applied, such as open relationship, open marriage, swinging, swapping, polyamory, polyfidelity and polygamy.

Why do swingers get married?

Why do people in open relationships get married?

Why do polyamorous people get married?

The short answer is: For the same reason most other people get married. They want to get married, they think it is the best thing to do at that time in life, or they’re pressured.



There are many reasons to get married, and as I noted, one doesn’t actually need to be monogamous to get married, unless one wants to be ethical and married to someone who needs and demands monogamy. People get married for love, for attraction, for companionship, to solemnize or make official their relationship, for religious reasons, to make a public statement, for sex, for children, for friendship, for benefits, for insurance, to pool resources, to co-parent, for career, for money, as a form of commitment, to apply a legal structure to their relationship, and for other reasons I’m probably forgetting. Nonmonogamists who marry do so for one or more of these reasons, just like anyone else.

Some people cite the marriage vow of "forsaking all others." But that is just ONE vow, not one that all people marrying make. The vow can also mean different things to different marriages.

Some nonmonogamists decline to marry for various reasons. Some, like some monogamists, have decided to decline until everyone can get married. Some decline to marry until everyone in their polycule can marry. Some can’t have a legal marriage for their polycule until there is full marriage equality.

The question can also be asked of monogamists: Why do you get married? Not only is actual monogamy not a requirement, in many places, of our restrictive marriage laws, but one can be monogamous without being married.

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Posted in: FAQ,group,open,polyamory,polygamy,swinging

Zambia Still Prosecuting Consenting Adults

CHAMBO NG’UNI reports at daily-mail.co.zm that authorities in Zambia are wasting efforts that could go to fighting child abuse as they are instead spent on prosecuting consenting adults for loving each other.

BERTHA Mwenda Chipapuka and her elder brother Mukuwa Nicholas Bulaya yesterday appeared before the Serenje Magistrate’s Court in which the charge of incest they are facing was explained to them.

Chipapuka, 35, and Bulaya, 38, have been married for 14 years and they have five children, with their first child being 13 years and the last aged 11 months.

And...? Why are they being prosecuted for living each other? Where is the harm?

Mr Chiluba informed Chipapuka that she was facing an offence of “incest contrary to Section 159(1) of the Penal code Chapter 87 of the Laws of Zambia as read with Act number 15 of 2003”.

It is alleged that between January 1, 2000 and December 29, last year in Serenje, Chipapuka had unlawful carnal knowledge of Bulaya, who to her knowledge is her biological brother.

Why is this a crime? It shouldn't be. I wonder who ratted them out? What will become of the children with their parents being forced apart and imprisoned?

Bulaya is also alleged to have had carnal knowledge of his immediate younger sister Chipapuka and he committed the offence between January 1, 2000 and December 29, 2013.

And who exactly is the victim? Since their names are different I'm wondering if they are half-siblings and if this is a case of  Genetic Sexual Attraction. Regardless, they have been together for a long time and their marriage has lasted longer than many others. What is the problem?

The article does not mention any problems with the children, and I'm sure that would have been mentioned if there were problems. This is another example of why we need full marriage equality in every country sooner rather than later. Although this is in Zambia, prosecutions like this happen in many places around the world, including the Americas, Australia, Europe, and Asia. Nobody should be discriminated against, let alone have to live in fear of prosecution, for loving other adults.

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Posted in: Africa,brother-sister,children,consanguineous,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,prosecution,siblings

Solidarity From Kim LaCapria

Recently at the dailyglobe.com, Kim LaCapria had the piece "Is Polyamory The New Gay Marriage? I Hope So."

The angry response to this concept that is so intriguing manifested after xoJane published what appears to be a controversial post by Angi Becker Stevens, titled simply “My Big Polyamorous Wedding.” In it, Stevens explains her plans to marry her boyfriend of several years — but plot twist: she’s already married, and planning to remain wed to her first husband.


Now, xoJane is a site where most posters and commenters are feminist and “sex positive,” but the response was overwhelmingly negative in the comments section. A small level of grudging acceptance was often appended with a “I don’t really like this, but …”, and even that was rare. Most posts demonstrated a visceral level of discomfort, fear, or otherwise disapproving assessment of Stevens’ life. (A life, we might add, that all parties involved seem to have chosen happily.)

Some people consent to, and want, things other people do not want. Why is that so hard to understand?

She points out that people quite often approach romantic or sexual relationships differently than they approach anything else in life...

Force or coercion is generally considered to be poor form, and socially discouraged — but if partners are not on the same “marriage timeline” we are, we’re advised by nearly everyone to force their hand on the matter or bail, never to consider that the decision is heavy and one to be arrived at when both parties are comfortable.

And if you question these unshakeable tenets — that there are minefields full of dealbreakers, that it’s “a breakup because it’s broken,” that “he’s just not that into you,” that tactical plays are the best route — you’re seen in one of two ways. Females are repeatedly told that it’s about “self worth,” and are called “doormats,” while men are accused of being “commitment-phobic,” “manchildren,” or simply are labeled cads.

In our strangely unformed collective opinion, you’re either the player or the played, so best to be on the offensive — a proposition we imbue with the collateral of divorce, expensive jewelry, or simply punitive use of affection. As a standard!

As such, we’ve arrived in 2013 with a post-women’s lib society and an adversarial playing ground for love. Or, at its bare bones, we no longer need the “sexual economy” on which marriage was based for so long. And in the absence of the sex for security exchange, we cling to the bizarrely dated, long-obsolete truths of monogamous marriage like some old harvest sacrifice, adhering to superstition and divination to declare certain certainties for which there really is no hard and fast rule.

Again, it isn't true that every person wants exactly the same thing when it comes to relationships as everyone else. And that's OK!

She cites the negative comments left after the article, bashing polyamorous people.

It goes on — but the ambient theme in the discussion of polyamory vis a vis gay marriage is fear. Fear we will be forced to “share,” fear that the promised happy ending will look different than what we’ve seen on Pinterest, fear that, most of all, our commitments will be tested time and again rather than a foregone conclusion, a Rachel McAdams and Ryan Gosling kiss in the rain, a post-script to the story of how we “got” the guy or girl — as if a person were a thing to get.

It seems the question of whether polyamory is the next gay marriage is secondary to the real question — why does every major divergence from “one man, one woman” terrify us so intensely, and why do we continue to indulge the idea others’ choices disrupt or even threaten our own?

BINGO!

Gay marriage has, in reality, always existed. So has polyamory. It is just that we're no longer going to force everyone into a closet unless they stick with a narrow heteromonogamous stay-within-your-race mold. Those days are over. Good riddance! Get used to it.

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Posted in: allies,LGBT,media,polyamory,polygamy,prejudice,solidarity,stigma

True Tales of Polyamory

Polyamory is now a regular topic in media, it seems, and that's a good thing. At refinery29.com, Claire Litton-Cohn writes up "3 Fascinating and True Stories" of polyamory.

Every polyamorous relationship relies on open discussion of rules and boundaries; there is a running joke among poly people that you always spend way more time talking about your feelings than you do having sex with your multiple partners.

It can seem that way.

Story 1...

Karen is in her early 30s. She lives in Toronto with a male partner, whom she has been dating for over five years, and has a woman she considers her life partner, whom she has been close to for approximately three years. She also has other relationships, including a serious boyfriend who lives in the United States, and both her live-in partner and life partner have other relationships as well.

She says...

"There are a heap of benefits. Having the freedom to explore new feelings with people, being able to be honest with my partners and lovers (and allowing them to be honest with me), feeling like I'm connected to a web of love and care. There are also so many small moments of joy: cooking a meal for my partners or being excited to hear about a partner's new love."

Story 2...

Rina is an engineer in her mid-30s living in San Francisco. She was in a polyamorous relationship for five years with a married man that eventually ended after she realized that her partner's relationship with her was interfering with his stated desires to have children with his wife.

She says...

"I have yet to see anyone pull it off without major doses of drama and bulls--- and ego and pain." 

 That sounds like long-term intimate relationships in general.

Story 3...

Ben lives in New York and is in his late 20s. While he has been nonmonogamous with a partner, he has never been in a polyamorous relationship.

He says...

"Poly involves a lot of communication and scheduling, so much so that I'd think it'd be hard to even realize if you're in a relationship—or if you are, what is it? Perhaps the ambiguity of where things could go or progress or how to get more 'serious' would bother me."

You can read it all here along with comments. People are people, so for the most part, problems you might find in other relationships will be found in polyamorous ones. Some polyamorous relationships are closed, some are open. Some are good, some... not so much. People should be allowed their own path, and not forced into a narrow heteromonogamous mold.

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Posted in: open,polyamory

Consanguinamory and Reproduction

One of the most common reasons given to object to the right to consanguineous relationships is what I call the "mutant baby" argument. Even some people who support the right to consanguinamory and have even engaged in consanguineous sex themselves join with bigots in being strongly against close relatives having children together because of prejudiced backlash or the increased risk of birth defects.

In regards to the prejudiced backlash, the answer is not to let bigots have their way. It is for bigots to lose their power to bully, prosecute, and break up homes. Don't want children of consanguineous parents to have a hard time? Do not give them a hard time.

In regards to the increased risk of birth defects, scientific understanding is often lacking.

Most sexual encounters do not result in a birth. Many people who have relationships or marry never have genetic children together; some people in consanguinamorous relationships choose not to. So, we must recognize the differences between sex, marriage, parenting, and reproduction, and not ban the first three because of concerns about the last one.

But let's deal with that last one.

Most births to consanguineous parents do not produce children with significant birth defects or other genetic problems; while births to other parents do sometimes have birth defects. There are happy, healthy, bright, attractive people born to close relatives who are productive members of society. We all know some, whether we know it or not, and whether they know it or not. It is that common. (Sometimes, they were conceived by an abuser, but often, not by an abuser but by mutual lovers.) We don’t prevent other people from marrying or deny them their reproductive rights based on increased odds of passing along a genetic problem or inherited disease. For example, it is entirely legal in the US and most other places for someone with Huntington's Disease to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children. How can such rights be denied to people who are genetically healthy, simply because they are close relatives?

It is true that in general, children born to consanguineous parents have an increased chance of genetic problems than those born to nonconsanguineous parents, but the odds are still minimal. (UPDATE: Please see this wonky elaboration on Tumblr, written by a Friend of FME.) There are US states and there are countries where consanguinamory is not illegal or at least it isn't prosecuted. Sweden will legally marry half-siblings in some circumstances. A comparison of the rate of genetic problems in these places to places that criminalize and actively prosecute consanguinamory reveals no discernible increase in genetic problems in the places that embrace this relationship right.

If a natural talent or gift runs in the family, the children born to consanguineous parents will be more likely to inherit and manifest that beneficial result as well; a birth benefit. But there are increased odds of problem with births to older parents, too. There's no stigma assigned to that, and it isn't illegal for older people to date, have sex, marry, and have genetic children together.

Anyone concerned about these things should have genetic testing and counseling. People who are not close relatives can pass along health problems, too.

The "birth defects" argument also implies that people with disabilities or some other birth defect are living lives so terrible that they should never have been born at all. Yet, there are many such people who are leading happy, fulfilling, productive lives.

But a current problem, in some (not all) cases, is that in giving birth, consanguineous parents will be outing themselves to someone who is prejudiced, and there will now be evidence of their (in some places) illegal love that can be used against them.

There are consanguinamorous parents happily raising their healthy children together. But some consanguinamorous relationships face very real threats. Again, the answer is to stop the persecution and prosecution. There is no good reason to deny consenting adults their equal protection of having their relationship and reproductive rights.

Consanguinamorous or not, anyone engaging in heterosexual intercourse should be aware of the possibility of pregnancy, the various forms of birth control and other options available, and the realities if pregnancy, birth, and raising children.

With all of that in mind, let's look at this thread on a consensual incest discussion board. (The discussion is explicit, so if you have a problem with that, you are warned.)

carebear82 wrote…

I have been sexually active with my brother for 3 years now. We have sex whenever we get the chance which unfortunately is only about once a month as we live a bit of a distance apart but whenever i am home visiting family once a month we always make a point to hook up at least once and we have always been careful to use condoms but i am seriously considering letting him go "bareback" . Sex without condoms is so much better. I know the risk but i am really considering it.

Girls out there in incestland? What do you thinik? Condoms? or no condoms?

Janel responded…

Carebear...as long as you are both disease and drug free...then ditch the condoms. But, if you are fertile, then just remember that you could get pregnant...not sure if you want that or not. If you know when you ovulate, then you just don't have sex during those 36 hours......

carebear82 added…

forsure. we both know the risks but i really want him to cum inside me. i think im going to do it. i tell you the first time i took off my clothes in front of him and he slowly gently slid his cock inside me it was heaven. what an amazing feeling.

horny guy questioned…

Is 36 hours going to be a safe enough timescale to ensure 'safe' sex with your brother? I've heard of many instances where a female has concieved in the middle of her cycle, which for you could be a disaster (unless you want to have a baby with your brother)?

Maybe you could try another form of contraception-spermicidal foam, for instance?

Hope all goes well, but be careful!

Hank5 was nostalgic…

My sister and I were lovers for 3 years whilst sharing an apartment attending the same out of town university. We made love almost daily, but neither of us like condoms and from the start we did it "bareback". The first time we did it, she went to the university health clinic the following morning to get the "morning after" pill. Thereafter she went on the contraceptive pill.

For both of us making love skin-on-skin, and me pouring my semen into her uterus, was the apex of sexual enjoyment.

Just make sure that you practice safe sex so as to avoid an unwanted pregnancy.

Carebear82 updated the situation with what you could probably guess would happen…

I just wanted to let everyone know that my stupid plan to ditch the condoms has now ended in disaster as i am now pregnant with my brothers baby.on my doctors advice i did not go on the pill because of a few of the risks of the pill involved so we were practicing the "pull out" and he usually cums on my tummy or back depending what position we are in. well one stupid time he didnt pull out in time and now its gonna be pretty hard to explain to the family.

Even if he had pulled out each time, that isn’t contraception. Sperm can leave the penis well before any orgasm.


That particular discussion board, like many others was suffering from much spam and gibberish posting. I recommend instead visiting Kindred Spirits forum, registering/joining for free. But be sure to immediately read AND FOLLOW all of the rules, or you'll be kicked right off.

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Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,children,coming out,consanguineous,FAQ,incest,lack of equality harms,love,pregnancy,prejudice,siblings

Why Polyamory Will Gain Acceptance Faster

It’s not going to take as long for polyamorists to get our freedoms, including the freedom to marry, as it is taking (monogamist) gays and lesbians.

First, I need to have a bit of clarification here. Polyamory has always been around with some public awareness, whatever forms it has taken or whichever labels have been applied, especially if we go with the broad term ethical nonmonogamy instead.

What I mean is that in the US, as well as many other countries, there was a sustained period of trying to force everyone, or at least everyone but the elite, into heterosexual, gender-roled, married monogamy with spouses that were “acceptable” by class, race, religion, etc. Those deemed not suitable for marriage were often kept out of public life in general. For example, people with certain disabilities were expected to stay home or be institutionalized so as to not cause discomfort to people who would be uneasy around them. That oppression is in the process of being dismantled. We are ending the prosecutions, the persecutions, the stigmatizing, and everything else that makes it so people go into hiding (or hiding an important part of who they are) because of who they are and who they love.

Polyamorists haven't had a "Stonewall" moment. Many people cite the Stonewall Riots of 1969 as the start of gay and lesbian people fighting back against such persecution. It has been 44 years and same-gender couples are still barred from legally marrying in most US states and LGBT people still need employment protections (ENDA). But the momentum is rapidly building, especially with the recent Supreme Court actions on DOMA and PropH8 and the death of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” for military service, and all of the public figures who are coming out in support of the same-gender freedom to marry. There have been so many advancements since 1969.

Note that earlier in the 1960s, the US adopted laws to protect racial minorities nationwide, and the Loving v. Virginia case struck down bans on the interracial freedom to marry, over a hundred years after the Emancipation Proclamation. Women got the vote nationwide in 1920 and have made much progress, but are still on the journey.

So will polyamorists have to wait a couple of generations?

Happily, the answer is no. Here why:



1) Momentum. Note that gay civil rights have made progress much faster than feminist and racial civil rights. Likewise, rights for nonmonogamists and people who don’t want to marry at all will not take as long as gay rights. Momentum is building, and polyamorists should be exceedingly appreciative of the work done by the racial, feminist, gay, and lesbian civil rights champions.

2) Smaller opposition. Opposition to polyamory and the polygamous freedom to marry comes almost entirely from specific segments of religious conservatives, more and more of whom are warming up to the fact that civil marriages are not a threat to their churches and that it is destructive and wasteful to concentrate on trying to control adult relationships, especially when it comes to people who are not members of their church. There are some who oppose the polygamous freedom to marry out of concern for tax/benefit issues, but those concerns can be addressed without denying any adults the freedom to marry.

3) Less motivated opposition. Most of the above considered “line in the sand” to be the same-gender freedom to marry and are already resigned to polygamous freedom to marry upon national establishment of the same-gender freedom to marry. While some monogamist LGBT people bristle at the connection, what matters is that a connection exists in the mind of those who oppose the freedoms and they do not want to continue fighting one freedom if the other is established. Those who identify as LGBT monogamists have much more in common with those who identify as heterosexual monogamists than some heteros realize, but in the prejudiced mind, monogamist LGBT people and polyamorists are in the same big “other” category.

4) More existing understanding. Some strictly heterosexual people are disgusted by the thought of gay sex and much of the now-diminishing opposition from heterosexuals to the same-gender freedom to marry came from that. Or, if not disgusted, they (especially males) simply couldn’t understand how someone might find someone of the same gender sexually or romantically attractive. But almost everyone can understand (or has personally experienced) being romantically or sexually attracted to more than one person at the same time. They’ve had the feelings themselves; this is one reason they bring up polyamory when discussing the freedom to marry. While someone may not personally want to pursue polyamory, they are more likely to avoid opposing those who do. Also, for religious conservatives, there is a heritage of polyamory in their traditions and clear scriptural prohibitions are lacking in most traditions’ scriptures.

5) Strict monogamy is rare. Most people are mostly or strictly heterosexual in how they see themselves and live, even if they’ve had some experiences with someone of the same gender. Very few people are truly and strictly monogamists sexually, emotionally, romantically over the course of a lifetime. Extending rights to polyamorous people, including the polygamous freedom to marry, deals with a reality that everyone has experienced. For example, if someone has children with more than one person, and they are all agreeable to a marriage structure involving three or more people, why deny them that? Relationships, including marriage, usually involve more than one bond (erotic, romantic, friendship, cohabitational, parental, legal, financial, professional, shared interests) between the people involved, and sometimes one of those bonds may diminish or end with one person and begin or increase with another, but there is no reason to end the earlier relationship; there could be good reasons nobody wants to end the relationship. For example, a woman might share sex, residence, children, and a business with one man, and sex, romance, friendship, and a love of theatre with another.

6) Political compatibility. Progressives, libertarians, and conservatives can all find much to like in polyamory, which is why you can find polyamorists in just about all areas of the political map. Polyamorists who are progressives see cooperative and efficient living in polyamory. Libertarians (who generally oppose government restriction on adult behavior that doesn’t violate another’s property or person) and conservative polyamorists like the idea of people relying on each other rather than a government program.

7) Increased compassion. More and more people now recognize that letting consenting adults have their relationships and love each other as they want is the right thing to do, and opposing relationships between consenting adults is not only mean-spirited, but a waste.

8) Experience. While many LGBT people are monogamists, some socially/politically active LGBT people are polyamorists or poly-friendly, and they are already motivated and working towards full marriage equality, and experienced in advancing these civil rights.

While some people fighting for LGBT rights or the same-gender freedom to marry only care about LGBT rights and monogamy, or even reject association with or comparison to polyamorists (including LGBT polyamorists) others have shown solidarity. Polyamorists owe a great deal of thanks to those in the racial, feminist, gay and lesbian civil rights movements for opening minds and establishing rights for adults, as well as continuing solidarity in the fight for those rights. Polyamorists will get their rights faster not because the movement is stronger than the LGBT rights movement, but rather exactly because the LGBT rights movement has been so strong.

Relationship rights and full marriage equality for all adults is going to happen. We’re trying to make it happen sooner rather than later.

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Posted in: allies,boundaries,coming out,freedom to marry,LGBT,marriage equality,polyamory,prejudice,same-sex,solidarity,USA