Polish Producer Michal Kwiecinsk Is Shameless

So much to blog, so little time. Back in the middle of the month, timesofindia.com had words from the producer of a film of interest to this blog...

Film audiences around the world are growing up and getting ready to accept bolder and controversial themes. But there are still areas that remain taboo, felt Polish producer Michal Kwiecinski. It's just as difficult to make a film on a subject like incest in Poland as in India, he said. Kwiecinski's film 'Shameless', directed by Filip Marczweski, revolves around the "sinful love" between a brother and a sister. It has made waves at several festivals around the world and is now being screened at the 18th Kolkata International Film Festival (KIFF).

Sinful?

'Shameless' is the story of an 18-year-old boy in love with his 28-year-old sister. The latter is in a relationship with the boss of a local Neo-Nazi unit. But she craves for her brother's love.

Sadly, there are people who'd have no objection to her relationship with a Neo-Nazi, but would condemn her for loving her brother.

The film has certain explicit sexual scenes that had to be censored for the screen version. But the DVD version of the film has them. As many as 50,000 DVDs of 'Shameless' have been sold so far. 

I'd like to watch it here in the US. Streaming? Or is there a DVD that will work here?

"Essentially, both Filip and I were keen on making a film on incest. It's set in a typical Polish town and the idea was to convey the message that these things are a part of our lives, whether we admit it or not," said Kwiecinski.

He would like to see more Indian films on a subject like this, he said. "I have watched a few Bengali films, though I don't remember their titles. They seem to be making them on a small budget, unlike Bollywood films.

Hollywood needs to take an honest look at the subject.

The reaction of youngsters in India has left him enthused. "They were asking questions and differed on the subject. But they didn't seem to have written it off altogether. I am sure it happens in India," he said.

Of course it does. Also, India has more progressive laws when it comes to consanguinamory. The arts and media should explore consanguinamory and the issues around it. Here is "Shameless" at IMDb.com.

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Posted in: allies,boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,Europe,incest,India,love,media,siblings

Frozen Sperm and the Social Security Administration

The Michigan Supreme Court heard oral arguments mid-Month in a very interesting case of first impression involving frozen sperm and Michigan's laws of intestacy.  The certified question before our High Court  is whether frozen sperm equates to "children" under the intestacy statute.

In this case, the procedure is as unusual as the fact pattern.  The case comes to the Supreme Court on a certified question from the United States District Court for the Western District of Michigan.  The case took more than five-years to get to the state court.

The case arose when the Mattisons, a married couple, arranged for Mr. Mattison to bank his frozen sperm in order to preserve it for later impregnation and prior to receiving chemotherapy to treat his cancer.  The couple desired to preserve their ability to have children but were worried that Mr. Mattison's chemotherapy would damage his sperm, complicating their efforts to conceive a child.

After actively preparing his wife to receive his frozen sperm, Mr. Mattison died back in 2001.  Ms. Mattison subsequently was implanted with her deceased husband's frozen sperm, conceived and gave birth to twins.

Ms. Mattison's application on behalf of the twins for survivor benefits was denied by the Social Security Administration.  The SSA took the position that the children did not survive their wage-earner father under the definition of the terms "child" and "survive" in Michigan's probate code; the Estates and Protected Individuals Code.

In listening to oral arguments in the case, it did not appear that the High Court Justices, particularly Justices Robert Young and Stephen Markman, were very receptive to Ms. Mattison's position.  Justice Young exhibited palpable irritation that the certified question, which appears to have no statutory support in EPIC, took so long to make it's way to the Michigan Supreme Court.

Although many other states are considering similar questions, we here at the Law Blogger predict that our Supreme Court will decide in this case that the Mattison twins are not entitled to receive the survivor benefits from their deceased wage-earning father on the basis that they simply did not exist at the time of their father's death.

Toward the end of the very brief oral arguments, one of the Justices asked Ms. Mattison's attorney whether he had considered raising the frozen sperm survivorship issue with the Michigan Legislature.  We agree with Justice Young when, during oral argument, he wondered aloud whether the certification of this particular question was essentially a violation of the constitutional separation of  powers.

Unfortunately for the Mattisons, Courts cannot legislate from the bench.

www.clarkstonlegal.com
info@clarkstonlegal.com

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Posted in: frozen sperm,intestacy,intestate,Justice Robert P. Young,Justice Stephen Markman,Michigan Supreme Court,Pamela Mattison,Social Security,Social Security Administration

The Best Part of Waking Up is Knowing Love Conquers Hate

I am bumping up this entry because the advertisement in question is getting much attention again. The comments expressed below are typical of the attacks popping up on blogs.

There was more questioning of the Folgers ad, along the lines of the previous mocking I wrote about here. Kristi Gustafson Barlette asked, “Dear Folgers, What’s With the Incest?”

As an adult, I associate Folgers with church basements (they always seem to be cooking up instant coffee at church) — and warm and fuzzy holiday commercials.

The one circulating this year, though, is just … icky.

R and I were watching TV the other day and it came on. At first, I thought the man was coming home from overseas to see his girlfriend. But, um, no — it’s his sister.

Why can’t she be both?

There were many comments left disparaging affection between siblings.

crabby old emily had a positive comment…

I have never felt this commercial implied anything but a sister happy to see her big brotherI Its not abnormal for little girls to have crushes on their big brothers or for brothers to notice a budding sexuality in little sisters,
That doesn’t meant they want to ravish each other.

CoolMom responded with an attack…

OK, I have 3 older bros and NEVER had a crush on any of them and I HIGHLY DOUBT one of them noticed my “budding sexuality”! WHAT?! THAT is creepy…

Since CoolMom doesn’t remember ever having a crush on an older brother, that is supposed to mean that no girls or boys could ever have possibly had crushes on an older brother. It is ridiculous. People can be different. Some people are attracted to people with darker skin, some attracted to people with lighter skin. Some people are attracted to someone of the same gender. We're not all going to have the same attractions.

Other people also attacked emily’s comment.

Here’s what Kevin Marshall had to say about the ad. He wrote “Folgers would like you to have sex with your brother this holiday season.”

First he comes to the door to meet his sister, who immediately identifies herself as Sister and gives him a big hug.

Things get weird around the 30 second mark, when West African Jesus and Sister start acting like they want to have sex with each other until their spot is blown up by their parents:

Apparently, the best part of waking up is preventing your children from engaging in incest.

It saddens me to think there are siblings out there who are affectionate, whether in a sexual or nonsexual way, who read or hear attacks like this, and get the message that they have to hide, or that they should feel bad about sharing such affection.

Young people need to know that sex is not a bad thing, and mutual affection is not a bad thing. If someone else is disgusted by their love or affection, that is that other person’s problem. It should not be a problem for those who love each other. We need full marriage equality sooner rather than later, along with general sexual and relationship rights, so that love can overcome hate.

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Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,incest,love,media,persecution,prejudice,siblings,stigma

The Best Part of Waking Up is Knowing Love Conquers Hate

I am bumping up this entry because the advertisement in question is getting much attention again. The comments expressed below are typical of the attacks popping up on blogs.

There was more questioning of the Folgers ad, along the lines of the previous mocking I wrote about here. Kristi Gustafson Barlette asked, “Dear Folgers, What’s With the Incest?”

As an adult, I associate Folgers with church basements (they always seem to be cooking up instant coffee at church) — and warm and fuzzy holiday commercials.

The one circulating this year, though, is just … icky.

R and I were watching TV the other day and it came on. At first, I thought the man was coming home from overseas to see his girlfriend. But, um, no — it’s his sister.

Why can’t she be both?

There were many comments left disparaging affection between siblings.

crabby old emily had a positive comment…

I have never felt this commercial implied anything but a sister happy to see her big brotherI Its not abnormal for little girls to have crushes on their big brothers or for brothers to notice a budding sexuality in little sisters,
That doesn’t meant they want to ravish each other.

CoolMom responded with an attack…

OK, I have 3 older bros and NEVER had a crush on any of them and I HIGHLY DOUBT one of them noticed my “budding sexuality”! WHAT?! THAT is creepy…

Since CoolMom doesn’t remember ever having a crush on an older brother, that is supposed to mean that no girls or boys could ever have possibly had crushes on an older brother. It is ridiculous. People can be different. Some people are attracted to people with darker skin, some attracted to people with lighter skin. Some people are attracted to someone of the same gender. We're not all going to have the same attractions.

Other people also attacked emily’s comment.

Here’s what Kevin Marshall had to say about the ad. He wrote “Folgers would like you to have sex with your brother this holiday season.”

First he comes to the door to meet his sister, who immediately identifies herself as Sister and gives him a big hug.

Things get weird around the 30 second mark, when West African Jesus and Sister start acting like they want to have sex with each other until their spot is blown up by their parents:

Apparently, the best part of waking up is preventing your children from engaging in incest.

It saddens me to think there are siblings out there who are affectionate, whether in a sexual or nonsexual way, who read or hear attacks like this, and get the message that they have to hide, or that they should feel bad about sharing such affection.

Young people need to know that sex is not a bad thing, and mutual affection is not a bad thing. If someone else is disgusted by their love or affection, that is that other person’s problem. It should not be a problem for those who love each other. We need full marriage equality sooner rather than later, along with general sexual and relationship rights, so that love can overcome hate.

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Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,incest,love,media,persecution,prejudice,siblings,stigma

Sibling Visitation – Does it Exist?

We have all heard the term “visitation” before, especially if you have been involved in a child custody dispute or divorce.  The term most often used by family law lawyers and professionals is “parenting time”; referring to the legal right [and obligation] of a parent to spend time with one’s child following a divorce. 

Even grandparents, under limited and specific circumstances, may have a legal right to visit with their grandchildren according to Michigan law.

But what about siblings?  Does a brother or sister have the right to visit their sibling, if for some reason they are no longer living within the same household? 

The short answer is that sibling visitation is not recognized as a legal right in Michigan.   The Child Custody Act does not provide for visitation rights between siblings.  Add adoption into the mix and the result remains the same – but for a more specific reason.  

Earlier this month, the Michigan Court of Appeals grappled with, and attempted to decide

this very issue in Wilson v King; a published thus binding opinion of the intermediate appellate court.

Marquita Wilson, the plaintiff-mother in this case, had three children who were eventually adopted into a new family in 2008 after her parental rights had been terminated.  Ms. Wilson then gave birth to a fourth child; Mac.  

The adoptive parents of Ms. Wilson's three children initially allowed Mac to visit with his siblings.  Sadly, for reasons not stated in the Court of Appeals opinion, the adoptive parents ultimately discontinued these sibling visits.  

Ms. Wilson filed suit on behalf of Mac in Wayne County Family Court.  The family court judge dismissed the claim on the basis that the right to “sibling visitation” does not exist under Michigan Law.  On appeal, Ms. Wilson argued that Michigan law does provide for a cause of action for sibling visitation and that the lower court had erred in dismissing her case.  

The Court of Appeals upheld the trial court’s decision – but did not find one way or the other on whether or not Michigan law provides for a cause of action for sibling visitation.  Instead, the Court focused on the fact that Mac’s older siblings had been adopted.  

Adoption legally severs any ties to the prior, natural family, and creates, in its place, a new adoptive family recognized at law.  This means that, legally speaking, Mac’s older siblings (once they had been adopted) were no longer his legal siblings in the eyes of the law.   

The Court of Appeals held that even if a cause of action regarding sibling visitation existed (which the Court made sure to footnote that they offered “no opinion as to the viability of such a claim”) in Mac’s instance the claim must fail as the three adoptive children were no longer his siblings. 

While we recognize the psychological importance of eliminating contact with biological parents in order to facilitate growth in the new adoptive family, this ruling strikes us as similar in spirit to the old paternity act that denied a biological father standing to seek any parenting time with his child whatsoever.

The ruling seems to foster the notion of wiping-out all traces of the adopted child's  biological family.  Many adopted children, as they mature, seek out traces of their biological families.  Some of these children, as they mature into adulthood, obsess over their lost families and seek therapy to deal with the loss.

At base, however, there is really no-way in cases like this to allow sibling visitation, without also focusing on the biological parents.  Our adoption laws currently do not provide for the maintenance of two families; just one: the adoptive family.

www.clarkstonlegal.com

info@clarkstonlegal.com

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Posted in: adoption,child custody,Child Custody Act,divorce,family court,family law,family law lawyer,Michigan Court of Appeals,Wayne County Circuit Court

Thanksgiving Day in US

Thanksgiving Day is a huge holiday in the US, centered mainly around a special family meal. In case you haven't noticed, Americans like to eat a lot. It is always on a Thursday, with Friday typically being a holiday as well. It is considered the busiest travel time in the US. I’m not sure why it is busier than Christmas. Probably because a lot of people throw in New Year’s Eve/Day with Christmas and schools are out for at least two weeks (some for over a month.) So, the travel is spread out over a longer period of time when it comes to Christmas. In addition, with Christmas, gift-giving is a central tradition, and it is easier to stay home and ship presents. For Thanksgiving, people just bring themselves, any luggage they need, and perhaps a dish or two.

Because Thanksgiving is considered to specifically be about family togetherness, it can be a painful time for those who have been rejected by their family because of their gender identity, sexual orientation, or choice in patner(s). Some LGBT people, poly people, and those in consanguineous, intergenerational, or interracial relationships are reminded every year that even their own family hates them.

Some people make the best of this and plan a Thanksgiving meal with friends. I throw out a special “good for you” to anyone who hosts such a meal this holiday. Keep up the good work. I think such gatherings are much more enjoyable anyway.

But I also have words for anyone who has driven away or banned someone in their family because of that other family member’s identity, orientation or partner(s): Shame on you. You don’t have to like your family member’s sexuality or how they live. But you should reach out to them and support them instead of driving them away. Every person at that table does things you don’t like. Why single out a family member for punishment because of who they love? If your family member has a partner whose family is more accepting, guess who is going to win? Guess who is going to get to play with any grandkids/nieces/nephews? Not you.

If you can’t go “home” for Thanksgiving and you are feeling down and you haven’t managed to make plans with friends, consider hosting your own Thanksgiving and invite some friends. Or, volunteer at a homeless shelter or some other charity location that will be helping people on Thursday. Don’t allow depression to take hold. You can find a place where you will be welcomed.

This Thanksgiving, in addition to those I love, I’m especially thankful for Linda, Melissa, and Matthew, who inspired this blog, and all of you who read this blog and especially those of you who leave comments or email me. I’m also thankful for everyone who is moving forward the right for all adults to be themselves and share love, sex, residence, and marriage.

What are you thankful for? Can you go home for Thanksgiving? Do you host? You are welcome to leave your comments, as always.

See my Advice to Family and Friends

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Posted in: allies,family reaction

Thanksgiving Day in US

Thanksgiving Day is a huge holiday in the US, centered mainly around a special family meal. In case you haven't noticed, Americans like to eat a lot. It is always on a Thursday, with Friday typically being a holiday as well. It is considered the busiest travel time in the US. I’m not sure why it is busier than Christmas. Probably because a lot of people throw in New Year’s Eve/Day with Christmas and schools are out for at least two weeks (some for over a month.) So, the travel is spread out over a longer period of time when it comes to Christmas. In addition, with Christmas, gift-giving is a central tradition, and it is easier to stay home and ship presents. For Thanksgiving, people just bring themselves, any luggage they need, and perhaps a dish or two.

Because Thanksgiving is considered to specifically be about family togetherness, it can be a painful time for those who have been rejected by their family because of their gender identity, sexual orientation, or choice in patner(s). Some LGBT people, poly people, and those in consanguineous, intergenerational, or interracial relationships are reminded every year that even their own family hates them.

Some people make the best of this and plan a Thanksgiving meal with friends. I throw out a special “good for you” to anyone who hosts such a meal this holiday. Keep up the good work. I think such gatherings are much more enjoyable anyway.

But I also have words for anyone who has driven away or banned someone in their family because of that other family member’s identity, orientation or partner(s): Shame on you. You don’t have to like your family member’s sexuality or how they live. But you should reach out to them and support them instead of driving them away. Every person at that table does things you don’t like. Why single out a family member for punishment because of who they love? If your family member has a partner whose family is more accepting, guess who is going to win? Guess who is going to get to play with any grandkids/nieces/nephews? Not you.

If you can’t go “home” for Thanksgiving and you are feeling down and you haven’t managed to make plans with friends, consider hosting your own Thanksgiving and invite some friends. Or, volunteer at a homeless shelter or some other charity location that will be helping people on Thursday. Don’t allow depression to take hold. You can find a place where you will be welcomed.

This Thanksgiving, in addition to those I love, I’m especially thankful for Linda, Melissa, and Matthew, who inspired this blog, and all of you who read this blog and especially those of you who leave comments or email me. I’m also thankful for everyone who is moving forward the right for all adults to be themselves and share love, sex, residence, and marriage.

What are you thankful for? Can you go home for Thanksgiving? Do you host? You are welcome to leave your comments, as always.

See my Advice to Family and Friends

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Posted in: allies,family reaction

Women Often Lose Health Insurance Coverage After Divorce

Long-term marriage has been an endangered species for some time in our society.  Couples in the United States divorce at the rate of approximately one million times each year.

Divorce is Hell for both men and women.  Even in our post-modern society, however, women still seem to get the brunt of the pain.

According to a recent study published by the University of Michigan, approximately 115,000 women nationwide lose their health insurance coverage as a direct result of the divorce process.  Of these, some 65,000 never re-gain coverage.

The study was conducted by Bridget Lavelle, a UM sociology doctoral candidate.  Ms. Lavelle examined literature and data from survey respondents who divorced between the years 1996 and 2007.  The December issue of the Journal of Health and Social Behavior will feature the study.

Lavelle postulates that women's loss of health insurance benefits is not just a temporary disruption resulting from the divorce process.  Rather, she concludes that the loss of health insurance coverage for women is a long-term problem that compounds the economic losses of divorced women.

What's worse is that mid-income women have the greatest risk of loss of coverage because they do not qualify for Medicaid or other safety-net coverage options available to lower income divorcees.

We here at the Law Blogger wonder what effect Obamacare and the Affordable Care Act will have on this equation next year when everyone must carry insurance by mandate of federal law.

When facing a divorce, if you are at risk of losing your health insurance coverage, consider demanding some form of short-term alimony payments sufficient to cover the 3-year period of COBRA available from your spouse's employer.  Or, in the alternative, shop for comparable affordable health insurance.

The short-term alimony approach will at least cover women during the initial transition from marriage when, as posited by Ms. Lavelle, they are most at risk to lose health insurance coverage, and suffer even greater economic hardships as a result.

www.clarkstonlegal.com
info@clarkstonlegal.com

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Posted in: Affordable Care Act,alimony,Bridget Lavelle,COBRA,divorce,health insurance,Obamacare,sociology,University of Michigan

A Picture of GSA

One is not going to get a good idea of what Genetic Sexual Attraction is from a few minutes of a television interview show sensationalizing the topic with woman, promoting a book and subscription website, with a limited, brief, doubtful experience with a long-lost relative.

The Lioness just posted something that is much better at giving a glimpse of GSA (as do her other blog postings.) She has experienced GSA with her genetic father, and it appears her brother is experiencing it, too. From her recent posting...

My brother spent the night at my apartment about a month ago. We were working with me on something to earn money and we didn’t get complete with our project until one o’clock a.m. I didn’t sleep with him. We mostly kissed. He held me, looked into my eyes, and I felt uncontrollably high. The last time I felt so wonderful in someone’s arms was when my father first held me. Never again has my father made me feel so perfect (I will explain why later). We stared into one another’s eyes for several minutes. I didn’t get it. I mean I do now, but then, it was just so amazing that words cannot describe how I felt. 

Go read it all.

And read interviews with people who've experienced Genetic Sexual Attraction here, here, here, here, here, and here.

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Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,father-daughter,grandmother-grandson,siblings

A Picture of GSA

One is not going to get a good idea of what Genetic Sexual Attraction is from a few minutes of a television interview show sensationalizing the topic with woman, promoting a book and subscription website, with a limited, brief, doubtful experience with a long-lost relative.

The Lioness just posted something that is much better at giving a glimpse of GSA (as do her other blog postings.) She has experienced GSA with her genetic father, and it appears her brother is experiencing it, too. From her recent posting...

My brother spent the night at my apartment about a month ago. We were working with me on something to earn money and we didn’t get complete with our project until one o’clock a.m. I didn’t sleep with him. We mostly kissed. He held me, looked into my eyes, and I felt uncontrollably high. The last time I felt so wonderful in someone’s arms was when my father first held me. Never again has my father made me feel so perfect (I will explain why later). We stared into one another’s eyes for several minutes. I didn’t get it. I mean I do now, but then, it was just so amazing that words cannot describe how I felt. 

Go read it all.

And read interviews with people who've experienced Genetic Sexual Attraction here, here, here, here, here, and here.

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Posted in: brother-sister,consanguineous,father-daughter,grandmother-grandson,siblings

A Closer Look at GSA on Dr. Drew

Now is as good of a time as any other to take a look at the transcript from the Dr. Drew show that supposedly discussed Genetic Sexual Attraction.

J. DENEEN: Well, I reunited with my father in February of 2011. 

That means that, even if this is GSA, she had well under two years of experience before she put together a book. There are people who've dealt with GSA, including the good, bad, ugly, beautiful, bitter, and joyous, for many, many years.

And then when we were on vacation about two months after our reunion, he said to me that he had an e-mail that he wanted me to read. And on that e-mail, it said that he wanted to kiss me. And I was shocked and nervous and embarrassed and scared.

But at the same time I had been struggling with my own feelings of wanting to be connected with my father again. It wasn`t sexual, but it was very emotionally intense. And I said no, but he continued to ask. And eventually I said, OK. And we kissed and this began a very inappropriate and unhealthy father/daughter relationship.

What made it inappropriate is that she was in a supposedly closed marriage.

What happens is that bonding process that you should have gone through as a child has not happened. When you reunite as adults, it kicks into gear. The problem is, that if you have any sort of brokenness or emotional issues, addictions, anything like that and you start feeling these abnormal feelings, it can get out of hand really fast.

 GSA is a normal reaction to the circumstances, and healthy people can and do experience it.

And the minute I started to feel uncomfortable or like I wasn`t sure what was going on with me, I got into therapy and tried to talk this through with her. My father, however, didn`t do that as much. And so he started to press this as a plausible type of relationship that we could have. And even though I resisted it for awhile, eventually I gave in.

Eventually.

PINSKY: So, Julie, if somebody were to look at this story and say hey, he abused you. What would you say?

J. DENEEN: I would say that there`s no question that there was a lot of manipulation and psychological abuse.

But then immediately after that she said...

I was a consenting adult. In fact, by the end of the relationship, I was initiating some of the sexual encounters.

However, what people don`t realize is that there was such an imbalance of power. And I wanted him to be a permanent figure in my life. 

Imbalance of power? As if he didn't also want her to be a permanent figure in his life? Just about every relationship involves some imbalance of power.

J. DENEEN: Yes, I did eventually -- you know, he was so delighted in me whenever I showed that side of him, that that became a way for me to make sure that he stayed. We did not have sex. I just want to be really clear about that.

And also I don`t want -- you know, I don`t want to bash my father. I`m trying to protect his identity, but the truth of the matter is that that is what happened. It was very sexually inappropriate, but we did not have sexual intercourse.

She has not experienced what so many other people who've experienced GSA have.

There was a call...

MARY, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Yes. My ex-husband fell in love with his biological daughter, our daughter, and sexually abused her at age 10. She told me about that finally. She kept saying she hated her dad. She didn`t want him to come home from school. She went (INAUDIBLE).

And then one night, I just kind of told her to quit saying that. And I kind of like had her shoulders and I was looking into her eyes and I saw such pain and fear that I thought there was no way a 10-year-old girl should have this much pain in her eyes and I knew, because there had been signs that went right over my head.

That has absolutely nothing to do with GSA. That is a a pedophile preying on a minor. However, nobody pointed that out, at least not until later. Instead, the discussion continued in a way that could be construed to say Deneen was comparing herself to that 10-yearl-old girl. An adoption therapist joined the discussion...

SUSAN BRANCO ALVARADO, ADOPTION THERAPIST: Well, it`s important to start by saying that many adopted persons have reunions with lots of complicated feelings, but GSA is not necessarily the most common of those feelings.

So I would say in my career I`ve worked with about four people who`ve experienced GSA. So it does happen. I think part of the reason we don`t hear about it as much is because of the stigma surrounding it, but it`s very traumatic.

PINSKY: And when you say you`ve worked with patients that have had this genetic sexual attraction, are you meaning people who actually followed through on the feeling or this is how many patients have the feeling in total?

ALVARADO: I would say about 1/4 have followed through. But many people often have these feelings and don`t necessarily follow through. But they`re very confusing and disturbing, and it`s definitely not something that we talk about enough to prepare people for this.

GSA isn't disturbing for everyone, and people who are free to be together and enjoy being together are unlikely to seek a counselor.

PINSKY: Was this a form of sexual or love addiction, do you think? Were you compulsively driven back to this person in a way you couldn`t control?

J. DENEEN: Yes. It was absolutely an addiction. It was -- it was terrible. And I remember saying to my husband, my therapist, I said I thought like the only way out was death, because I didn`t know how I was going to be able to get myself free from this.

PINSKY: You said you didn`t have -- you didn`t have actual sexual relations. What happened between you and he?

J. DENEEN: I mean, it was just a lot of inappropriate contact. I mean, we don`t live close together so we only saw each other maybe four or five times, but the relationship was completely inappropriate -- emotionally, physically. It was just not normal for a father and daughter.

I have to wonder what would have happened if she wasn't in a closed relationship/

TERRY, CALLER FROM MARYLAND: Hi, Dr. Drew.

I have -- I know of a family where this sort of thing happened, but it`s a little bit different from Julie`s story. There was a very prominent family in Florida where the father was a very well known doctor. They had two daughters, and he was molesting his daughters.

PINSKY: Well, now -- but, Terry. Having sexual abuse of children is different than what we`re talking about here.

Finally! Thank you for that.

There needs to be help for people who have commitments or prejudices that make GSA especially difficult to deal with AND there needs to he help for people brought together through GSA who just want to be together, and have to deal with hostility and bigotry from others, sometimes bigotry that is embedded in the law. I recommend http://www.gsaforums.com/ as the place to go to discuss Genetic Sexual Attraction.

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Posted in: boundaries,cheating,consanguineous,father-daughter,GSA,media,prejudice

A Closer Look at GSA on Dr. Drew

Now is as good of a time as any other to take a look at the transcript from the Dr. Drew show that supposedly discussed Genetic Sexual Attraction.

J. DENEEN: Well, I reunited with my father in February of 2011. 

That means that, even if this is GSA, she had well under two years of experience before she put together a book. There are people who've dealt with GSA, including the good, bad, ugly, beautiful, bitter, and joyous, for many, many years.

And then when we were on vacation about two months after our reunion, he said to me that he had an e-mail that he wanted me to read. And on that e-mail, it said that he wanted to kiss me. And I was shocked and nervous and embarrassed and scared.

But at the same time I had been struggling with my own feelings of wanting to be connected with my father again. It wasn`t sexual, but it was very emotionally intense. And I said no, but he continued to ask. And eventually I said, OK. And we kissed and this began a very inappropriate and unhealthy father/daughter relationship.

What made it inappropriate is that she was in a supposedly closed marriage.

What happens is that bonding process that you should have gone through as a child has not happened. When you reunite as adults, it kicks into gear. The problem is, that if you have any sort of brokenness or emotional issues, addictions, anything like that and you start feeling these abnormal feelings, it can get out of hand really fast.

 GSA is a normal reaction to the circumstances, and healthy people can and do experience it.

And the minute I started to feel uncomfortable or like I wasn`t sure what was going on with me, I got into therapy and tried to talk this through with her. My father, however, didn`t do that as much. And so he started to press this as a plausible type of relationship that we could have. And even though I resisted it for awhile, eventually I gave in.

Eventually.

PINSKY: So, Julie, if somebody were to look at this story and say hey, he abused you. What would you say?

J. DENEEN: I would say that there`s no question that there was a lot of manipulation and psychological abuse.

But then immediately after that she said...

I was a consenting adult. In fact, by the end of the relationship, I was initiating some of the sexual encounters.

However, what people don`t realize is that there was such an imbalance of power. And I wanted him to be a permanent figure in my life. 

Imbalance of power? As if he didn't also want her to be a permanent figure in his life? Just about every relationship involves some imbalance of power.

J. DENEEN: Yes, I did eventually -- you know, he was so delighted in me whenever I showed that side of him, that that became a way for me to make sure that he stayed. We did not have sex. I just want to be really clear about that.

And also I don`t want -- you know, I don`t want to bash my father. I`m trying to protect his identity, but the truth of the matter is that that is what happened. It was very sexually inappropriate, but we did not have sexual intercourse.

She has not experienced what so many other people who've experienced GSA have.

There was a call...

MARY, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Yes. My ex-husband fell in love with his biological daughter, our daughter, and sexually abused her at age 10. She told me about that finally. She kept saying she hated her dad. She didn`t want him to come home from school. She went (INAUDIBLE).

And then one night, I just kind of told her to quit saying that. And I kind of like had her shoulders and I was looking into her eyes and I saw such pain and fear that I thought there was no way a 10-year-old girl should have this much pain in her eyes and I knew, because there had been signs that went right over my head.

That has absolutely nothing to do with GSA. That is a a pedophile preying on a minor. However, nobody pointed that out, at least not until later. Instead, the discussion continued in a way that could be construed to say Deneen was comparing herself to that 10-yearl-old girl. An adoption therapist joined the discussion...

SUSAN BRANCO ALVARADO, ADOPTION THERAPIST: Well, it`s important to start by saying that many adopted persons have reunions with lots of complicated feelings, but GSA is not necessarily the most common of those feelings.

So I would say in my career I`ve worked with about four people who`ve experienced GSA. So it does happen. I think part of the reason we don`t hear about it as much is because of the stigma surrounding it, but it`s very traumatic.

PINSKY: And when you say you`ve worked with patients that have had this genetic sexual attraction, are you meaning people who actually followed through on the feeling or this is how many patients have the feeling in total?

ALVARADO: I would say about 1/4 have followed through. But many people often have these feelings and don`t necessarily follow through. But they`re very confusing and disturbing, and it`s definitely not something that we talk about enough to prepare people for this.

GSA isn't disturbing for everyone, and people who are free to be together and enjoy being together are unlikely to seek a counselor.

PINSKY: Was this a form of sexual or love addiction, do you think? Were you compulsively driven back to this person in a way you couldn`t control?

J. DENEEN: Yes. It was absolutely an addiction. It was -- it was terrible. And I remember saying to my husband, my therapist, I said I thought like the only way out was death, because I didn`t know how I was going to be able to get myself free from this.

PINSKY: You said you didn`t have -- you didn`t have actual sexual relations. What happened between you and he?

J. DENEEN: I mean, it was just a lot of inappropriate contact. I mean, we don`t live close together so we only saw each other maybe four or five times, but the relationship was completely inappropriate -- emotionally, physically. It was just not normal for a father and daughter.

I have to wonder what would have happened if she wasn't in a closed relationship/

TERRY, CALLER FROM MARYLAND: Hi, Dr. Drew.

I have -- I know of a family where this sort of thing happened, but it`s a little bit different from Julie`s story. There was a very prominent family in Florida where the father was a very well known doctor. They had two daughters, and he was molesting his daughters.

PINSKY: Well, now -- but, Terry. Having sexual abuse of children is different than what we`re talking about here.

Finally! Thank you for that.

There needs to be help for people who have commitments or prejudices that make GSA especially difficult to deal with AND there needs to he help for people brought together through GSA who just want to be together, and have to deal with hostility and bigotry from others, sometimes bigotry that is embedded in the law. I recommend http://www.gsaforums.com/ as the place to go to discuss Genetic Sexual Attraction.

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Posted in: boundaries,cheating,consanguineous,father-daughter,GSA,media,prejudice

An Ally For the Polygamous Freedom to Marry

Margot Harrison at 7dvt.com interviews Professor Janet Bennion about her book Polygamy in Primetime.

courtesy of David Ballou

Like many examples in Bennion’s illuminating study, they defy the popular perception that the practice of men taking multiple wives is solely about the male libido.

You don't say?


But whatever we think of polygamy in America, Bennion argues, it’s not going away anytime soon. And she believes it should be legal.

Thank you! As you can see, she knows her stuff...

Bennion, 48, has been researching polygamy for two decades. As a master’s student in 1989, she moved in with a rural Montana colony of the Apostolic United Brethren, a fundamentalist Mormon sect that still practices plural marriage as instructed by founder Joseph Smith in 1843. (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints [LDS] officially renounced polygamy in 1890.) 

Bennion would go on to publish book-length ethnographic studies of the AUB and the LeBaron fundamentalist colony in Mexico. Her fieldwork got her in trouble with LDS church leaders, who “disfellowshipped” her.

That's too bad. Some religious organizations support people questioning the imposition of the "heterosexual monogamy only" model.

But she made new friendships with a startling range of polygamous women. Most bore little resemblance to the underage brides in prairie dresses familiar from news reports about raids on Warren Jeffs’ Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS). Women in the large AUB group can and do work outside the home, dress as they choose and divorce when they wish.

Child abuse should be prosecuted. Consensual relationships between adult should not.

SD: You mention having a “theory that plural marriage fosters clandestine lesbianism” — something the LDS church doesn’t condone.

JB: That’s a new area of interest. I think women do what they need to do without a man around. Mormon women have done this for ages. There are women in the Utah pioneer days who formed a sisterhood network and allowed for lesbian connections. It doesn’t upset the patriarchal framework. I talked to at least three women who had formed sexual connections to their sister wives or to another woman in the community. When the husbands found out, they just called it a friendship. 

This is nothing new. If there was a Solomon with all those wives, as the Bible says, does anyone, after thinking about it for a second, doubt that there were some lesbians and lesbian relationships involved?

SD: Why should we legalize plural marriage?

JB: We need to just step back, get off our high horse, and look at this from a civil liberties perspective. If we’re going to pave the way for alternative sexuality, why not provide liberties for those who choose the polygamy form? We hear a lot about the abuse cases, but we rarely hear about the well-functioning families. As a feminist, I say, “Bring it on; let’s legalize it.” In that way, what you do is you bring the abuses into the light. You bring in governmental regulating policies that protect second wives.

[This position is] controversial, that’s for sure. There are abuses, but to state that polygamy is uniformly abusive is just an outright lie. It’s a form of bigotry. 

Agreed!

Although the interview is mostly about polygyny, she makes it clear that she supports polyandry, too.

Thank you, Professor Bennion for supporting the polygamous freedom to marry.

Read more »

Posted in: academia,allies,FLDS,freedom to marry,lack of equality harms,LDS,LGBT,love,media,polygamy,religion,same-sex

Consanguinamory Between Siblings Prompts a Mother's Call

I always appreciate when readers of this blog refer me to something of relevance I might otherwise miss. A friend who wants to remain anonymous caught something interesting on yesterday's edition of the "The Jesus Christ Show." It's an call-in advice radio show in which the host, in character as a theologically conservative (if somewhat less conservative socially) Jesus Christ, does monologues and answers questions from callers. The calls range from religious questions to problems someone is having in their life.

The Jesus Christ show is interactive radio theater designed to teach people about themselves and the historical person of Jesus.

Nationally syndicated, the Jesus Christ show can be heard accross the US. The producer of the the Jesus Christ show, Neil Saavedra, likens the show to a history teacher dressing up like Abraham Lincoln or Benjamin Franklin to help people put flesh on the bones of history.

Saavedra is the person actually playing Jesus. The show is on the air for three hours, and the podcast I found is all "three hours," but since the podcast eliminates the advertisements, news, etc., it is under two hours. If you download it and go to the 1 hour 32 minute mark, shortly after that "Jesus" takes a call from a woman who has a problem with her on of her adult sons. He's moved away, become a father, and cut off contact with her. As it turns out, when her son and his sister were about 14/15 years old, like many other siblings that age, they experimented sexually with each other. The caller links her discovery of these past events (as her daughter told her) with her son ceasing communication. However, it would have been nice to hear from either her daughter or the son, as this woman didn't know what was going on at the time, and is only going to have limited knowledge of it now.

The caller states that she thinks her daughter was actually in love with her son. She also states that their grandmother knew, and that the grandmother didn't say anything to the caller because the daughter requested she not.

Saavedra takes the position that the behavior was seriously wrong without giving any practical or religious reason why. He even tries to get the caller to give some indication that something was seriously wrong with the family, asking if there had been alcohol abuse involved or that her husband had abused the children, but the caller shot those suggestions down. The caller asked why she was being "punished." At least "Jesus" called her out on that, although not for the right reasons. It is not punishment for your teenagers to get along that well. Maybe if people were more informed of the realities, they wouldn't assume they had done something wrong in raising their children.

It is entirely possible that these were two teens enjoying each other, perhaps one or both of them conflicted over whether or not it could be more. It happens every day in homes around the world, both in dysfunctional families and in families where things are good.

Unless the daughter indicates that her brother was abusive, the caller might be able to re-establish contact with him by sending him a letter stating that she understands what happened was normal and there's no reason for him to stay away.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,lack of equality harms,love,media,siblings

Consanguinamory Between Siblings Prompts a Mother's Call

I always appreciate when readers of this blog refer me to something of relevance I might otherwise miss. A friend who wants to remain anonymous caught something interesting on yesterday's edition of the "The Jesus Christ Show." It's an call-in advice radio show in which the host, in character as a theologically conservative (if somewhat less conservative socially) Jesus Christ, does monologues and answers questions from callers. The calls range from religious questions to problems someone is having in their life.

The Jesus Christ show is interactive radio theater designed to teach people about themselves and the historical person of Jesus.

Nationally syndicated, the Jesus Christ show can be heard accross the US. The producer of the the Jesus Christ show, Neil Saavedra, likens the show to a history teacher dressing up like Abraham Lincoln or Benjamin Franklin to help people put flesh on the bones of history.

Saavedra is the person actually playing Jesus. The show is on the air for three hours, and the podcast I found is all "three hours," but since the podcast eliminates the advertisements, news, etc., it is under two hours. If you download it and go to the 1 hour 32 minute mark, shortly after that "Jesus" takes a call from a woman who has a problem with her on of her adult sons. He's moved away, become a father, and cut off contact with her. As it turns out, when her son and his sister were about 14/15 years old, like many other siblings that age, they experimented sexually with each other. The caller links her discovery of these past events (as her daughter told her) with her son ceasing communication. However, it would have been nice to hear from either her daughter or the son, as this woman didn't know what was going on at the time, and is only going to have limited knowledge of it now.

The caller states that she thinks her daughter was actually in love with her son. She also states that their grandmother knew, and that the grandmother didn't say anything to the caller because the daughter requested she not.

Saavedra takes the position that the behavior was seriously wrong without giving any practical or religious reason why. He even tries to get the caller to give some indication that something was seriously wrong with the family, asking if there had been alcohol abuse involved or that her husband had abused the children, but the caller shot those suggestions down. The caller asked why she was being "punished." At least "Jesus" called her out on that, although not for the right reasons. It is not punishment for your teenagers to get along that well. Maybe if people were more informed of the realities, they wouldn't assume they had done something wrong in raising their children.

It is entirely possible that these were two teens enjoying each other, perhaps one or both of them conflicted over whether or not it could be more. It happens every day in homes around the world, both in dysfunctional families and in families where things are good.

Unless the daughter indicates that her brother was abusive, the caller might be able to re-establish contact with him by sending him a letter stating that she understands what happened was normal and there's no reason for him to stay away.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,family reaction,lack of equality harms,love,media,siblings

Something to See in Santa Cruz

Will you be in near Santa Cruz, California around the end of this month? Wallace Baine at santacruzsentinel.com reports on Chicano Theatreworks presenting "The Hedonists," a play of interest to readers of this blog.

Don't look to Manuel Montez for tame theater.

The artistic director of Chicano Theatreworks is wading into dangerous waters with the new production of his own play "The Hedonists," which addresses themes of brother/sister incest. 

Good for him.

"The Hedonists" is a contemporary drama taking place over the course of three days set in an unnamed "coastal mid-sized California city" (hmmm ...). It is the story of Nico, a musician struggling to emerge from a crippling depression, who happens to be in sexual relationships with two women -- his exotic-dancer girlfriend Vivis and his sister Mara.

Sounds interesting.

"This piece has been germinating for years," said Montez about "The Hedonists." "It has to do with a part of my life in which I was dealing with depression, coupled with the factor that my oldest sister was stillborn and she is someone who has been absent in my life. And I have always thought about what her absence has meant in my life."

This isn't the first time I've heard of someone exploring this subject, citing an older siblings who did not survive.

Despite the theater company's name, Montez said that Chicano Theatreworks is not primarily concerned with theater about Chicano/Latino culture or heritage, like the artistic mission of San Juan Bautista's El Teatro Campesino.

"It's not that I don't honor that kind of work -- I do -- but my interest in Chicano Theatreworks has always been to promote and produce original material on identity-driven issues that are universal to the human experience. We are interested in the human soul, and no matter what ethnic or cultural background we come from, we all feel loss and abandonment. We all feel love, no matter what."

Great! The play will have a matinee on November 25 and runs Friday & Saturdays through December 1 with a Thursday performance on November 29. $15 general/$13 students & seniors. Details: manuelmontez.sc@gmail.com.

If you go, please report back on your experience.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,brother-sister,consanguineous,polyamory,siblings

Per Reader Demand, Dear Prudence Revisits ConsanguinamorousTwins

On the heels of Dear Margo's follow-up on fraternal heterosexual twins, Dear Prudence (written by Emily Yoffe) revisits, per reader demand, male twins in a consanguinamorous relationship. We wrote about them before here.

We did contact an attorney as you suggested, who told us that while incest is illegal in our state, our situation was unique and unless we paraded down the street engaging in public sex, there was no chance of prosecution.

Consulting an attorney is a good idea. As far as prosecution, all it takes is someone in law enforcement to get an itch, or a powerful family member who has a hateful heart. Supportive family can make all of the difference.

After that, talking about your column some more sparked a motivation to get the perspective of a professional marriage/family counselor.

If someone in this situation is going to seek counseling, they need one that does not come from a bigoted place.

We found one who, over the past seven months, helped us not only think through the immediate dilemma but also, unexpectedly, deal with some long-buried issues from our childhood.

The way our relationship turned romantic and sexual when we were kids was that I was being bullied pretty badly starting in fifth grade for being a "sissy" and my brother (who was a lot more masculine, into sports, and therefore not bullied) was the only one I could turn to for support. I didn't feel that I could confide in our parents, who at that time made homophobic comments regularly (it was the middle of the AIDS epidemic). There was one night in our room when I broke down crying and admitted that I was gay. He saw himself in the role as my protector, and then one thing led to another from there.

Like other relationships, some consanguinamorous relationships spring from turmoil, but some spring from people in or who had childhoods as happy as any other happy childhood. Consanguinamory is not necessarily a sign that anything was or is wrong.

I fully acknowledge that when we were kids the relationship was somewhat co-dependent, but we lead pretty independent lives now with separate careers, friend networks, etc. I know some of your readers think we're emotionally stunted, and maybe we are. On the other hand, I know plenty of people in unhappy relationships (gay and straight) with troubled families, so I guess in some way we're all a little screwed up, aren't we?

Everyone has something to deal with.

One of the more ironic parts of this situation is that the sexual aspect of our relationship faded away many years ago. We're physically intimate, but it's limited to kissing and cuddling for the most part. According to our counselor, this phenomenon is actually not uncommon among gay male companions, and from what I gather, even among heterosexual couples who've been together as long as we have. 

I can't see ever letting that happen in my life. I would be so grouchy. It would take some serious injury or disease, and even then, I'd probably do whatever I could to keep things going.

Over the summer when our mom brought up the subject (again), we were well prepared with a response. We told her that we both tried dating men and women (true) but never met anyone who made us want to give up the comfortable, happy life we already have living together (true). We said she didn't have to worry we would die alone, because we're committed to supporting each other to the end (also true). She wasn't thrilled, but at least the way we responded appeared to allay some of her worries. We gave similar explanations to a few of our friends and they seem to think it at least makes rational sense, even if it's not ideal from their perspective.

It is good to see that it is working out for them, and good that Slate.com and Dear Prudence were willing to deal with this.

Read more »

Posted in: allies,brother-brother,consanguineous,family reaction,LGBT,love,media,same-sex,siblings

Per Reader Demand, Dear Prudence Revisits ConsanguinamorousTwins

On the heels of Dear Margo's follow-up on fraternal heterosexual twins, Dear Prudence (written by Emily Yoffe) revisits, per reader demand, male twins in a consanguinamorous relationship. We wrote about them before here.

We did contact an attorney as you suggested, who told us that while incest is illegal in our state, our situation was unique and unless we paraded down the street engaging in public sex, there was no chance of prosecution.

Consulting an attorney is a good idea. As far as prosecution, all it takes is someone in law enforcement to get an itch, or a powerful family member who has a hateful heart. Supportive family can make all of the difference.

After that, talking about your column some more sparked a motivation to get the perspective of a professional marriage/family counselor.

If someone in this situation is going to seek counseling, they need one that does not come from a bigoted place.

We found one who, over the past seven months, helped us not only think through the immediate dilemma but also, unexpectedly, deal with some long-buried issues from our childhood.

The way our relationship turned romantic and sexual when we were kids was that I was being bullied pretty badly starting in fifth grade for being a "sissy" and my brother (who was a lot more masculine, into sports, and therefore not bullied) was the only one I could turn to for support. I didn't feel that I could confide in our parents, who at that time made homophobic comments regularly (it was the middle of the AIDS epidemic). There was one night in our room when I broke down crying and admitted that I was gay. He saw himself in the role as my protector, and then one thing led to another from there.

Like other relationships, some consanguinamorous relationships spring from turmoil, but some spring from people in or who had childhoods as happy as any other happy childhood. Consanguinamory is not necessarily a sign that anything was or is wrong.

I fully acknowledge that when we were kids the relationship was somewhat co-dependent, but we lead pretty independent lives now with separate careers, friend networks, etc. I know some of your readers think we're emotionally stunted, and maybe we are. On the other hand, I know plenty of people in unhappy relationships (gay and straight) with troubled families, so I guess in some way we're all a little screwed up, aren't we?

Everyone has something to deal with.

One of the more ironic parts of this situation is that the sexual aspect of our relationship faded away many years ago. We're physically intimate, but it's limited to kissing and cuddling for the most part. According to our counselor, this phenomenon is actually not uncommon among gay male companions, and from what I gather, even among heterosexual couples who've been together as long as we have. 

I can't see ever letting that happen in my life. I would be so grouchy. It would take some serious injury or disease, and even then, I'd probably do whatever I could to keep things going.

Over the summer when our mom brought up the subject (again), we were well prepared with a response. We told her that we both tried dating men and women (true) but never met anyone who made us want to give up the comfortable, happy life we already have living together (true). We said she didn't have to worry we would die alone, because we're committed to supporting each other to the end (also true). She wasn't thrilled, but at least the way we responded appeared to allay some of her worries. We gave similar explanations to a few of our friends and they seem to think it at least makes rational sense, even if it's not ideal from their perspective.

It is good to see that it is working out for them, and good that Slate.com and Dear Prudence were willing to deal with this.

Read more »

Posted in: allies,brother-brother,consanguineous,family reaction,LGBT,love,media,same-sex,siblings

Needing a Loveline From Dr. Drew

Television show host Dr. Drew again put a one-sided presentation of Genetic Sexual Attraction on the air. See this previous coverage for background on this. With awareness of GSA still barely emerging in the general public and with so few resources, it is a shame that such a limited view of GSA is presented, promoting a book and a subscription service that usurped an established, free discussion forum, narrowing the discussion both in availability and tone. Instead, as always, I recommend www.gsaforums.com for help, understanding, and meeting others involved. Notice that gsaforums.com is not about one, two, or three people who are trying to make a name for themselves but about and for people who have been touched by GSA, whether they are the person experiencing GSA is dealing with someone who is.



The reaction of one woman who is happily living in a spousal relationship with her brother?

That woman hasn't got a bloody clue on GSA, she didn't have a sexual relationship with him, and she only met him 4 times. She blames him totally, that was NO GSA relationship.

Here's what the hlntv.com site said to promote the show...

Genetic sexual attraction is the strange phenomenon of parents and children who develop an erotic attraction after years of separation. Julie DeNeen experienced this bizarre reality after being reunited with her long lost biological father. The attraction was mutual - her father had the same feelings. What followed was a deeply unhealthy and inappropriate relationship. The experience rocked Julie's marriage and her emotional life.

Of course GSA can be very problematic when it interferes with previously happy & healthy closed relationships or involves minors under the age of consent for the location of residence. But there are adults in lasting, healthy, happy relationships initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction, and they don't need law enforcement to interfere, and they certainly don't need people involved in GSA discussions wagging their fingers.

From Julie's blog...

And now, it is time to break the F5 button while I watch to see what impact this has on my book.

If you or someone you know may be experiencing Genetic Sexual Attraction, please see this page. I'm not selling anything.This blog is a labor of love.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,media,reunion

Needing a Loveline From Dr. Drew

Television show host Dr. Drew again put a one-sided presentation of Genetic Sexual Attraction on the air. See this previous coverage for background on this. With awareness of GSA still barely emerging in the general public and with so few resources, it is a shame that such a limited view of GSA is presented, promoting a book and a subscription service that usurped an established, free discussion forum, narrowing the discussion both in availability and tone. Instead, as always, I recommend www.gsaforums.com for help, understanding, and meeting others involved. Notice that gsaforums.com is not about one, two, or three people who are trying to make a name for themselves but about and for people who have been touched by GSA, whether they are the person experiencing GSA is dealing with someone who is.



The reaction of one woman who is happily living in a spousal relationship with her brother?

That woman hasn't got a bloody clue on GSA, she didn't have a sexual relationship with him, and she only met him 4 times. She blames him totally, that was NO GSA relationship.

Here's what the hlntv.com site said to promote the show...

Genetic sexual attraction is the strange phenomenon of parents and children who develop an erotic attraction after years of separation. Julie DeNeen experienced this bizarre reality after being reunited with her long lost biological father. The attraction was mutual - her father had the same feelings. What followed was a deeply unhealthy and inappropriate relationship. The experience rocked Julie's marriage and her emotional life.

Of course GSA can be very problematic when it interferes with previously happy & healthy closed relationships or involves minors under the age of consent for the location of residence. But there are adults in lasting, healthy, happy relationships initiated through Genetic Sexual Attraction, and they don't need law enforcement to interfere, and they certainly don't need people involved in GSA discussions wagging their fingers.

From Julie's blog...

And now, it is time to break the F5 button while I watch to see what impact this has on my book.

If you or someone you know may be experiencing Genetic Sexual Attraction, please see this page. I'm not selling anything.This blog is a labor of love.

Read more »

Posted in: boundaries,coming out,consanguineous,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,media,reunion

Katrina Yates is Still an Attention Hog

Katrina Yates still finds it necessary to blab to the media about the love lives of other consenting adults. We wrote about her media appearances before. Now thesun.co.uk has run an article rehashing her despair that other people may have found lover and happiness with each other. Jane Atkinson reports. The subheadline says this is "One of the most disturbing stories you'll ever read." I agree, but not for the same reason an editor chose those words.

Disgusted by the discovery, Katrina turned her daughter in to the police.

It is disturbing to me that someone would use unjust laws to interfere with the love life of consenting adults, especially when she's supposed to love and support one of them.

And last year, after 47-year-old Butler was jailed for admitting to sex with an adult relative, Nicola, 27, vowed to have nothing more to do with him.

But now Butler has been freed from prison and Nicola has vanished.

Well, yeah, if she risks having police arrest her for having consensual sex with someone she loves, disappearing can be a good idea.

Katrina, from Birmingham, met Butler at work in 1984 when she was 17. Within a year they were married and went on to have Nicola and son Lee, now 25 — but then their relationship broke down.

She said: “He was a good dad but we just grew apart. We separated when Nicola was four.”

So it was OK for Katrina to fall in love with Butler, but not another woman, not a woman who has inherited some of her traits?

And when Katrina got together with electrician Carl Yates, 41, both Nicola and Lee called him dad.
She said: “Carl treated my kids as his own and when Nicola was 18 she changed her surname by deed poll to Yates."

So Nicola has a social father. Butler hasn't had that role with her. What is the problem???

Even Nicola's sister reported Nicola was happy with him...

Nicola kept fobbing her mum off with excuses [preventing her mother from meeting her boyfriend] and, to throw her off the scent, she invited her teenage half-sister Natalie over to meet “Andy”. 

Katrina said: “If I said I’d pop round, she’d always say she’d save me the trouble and come to my house.

“My other daughter met ‘Andy’ a few times and although she said he was much older than Nicola, she said her sister seemed happy — that was all I ever wanted for my children.” 

But she couldn't just accept it. Instead, she had to cause trouble. After two prosecutions apparently haven't dissuaded their love, shouldn't the media, law enforcement, and Ms. Yates just let them be happy together?

The paper does mention that this is a matter of Genetic Sexual Attraction.

For all the finger-wagging, nobody gives a good reason why these two lovers shouldn't be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage, if that is what they want, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. "I'm disgusted" is not a reason. Don't like it? Don't do it. LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!

Read more »

Posted in: breaking up homes,consanguineous,courts,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,love,media,persecution,prejudice,prosecution,UK

Katrina Yates is Still an Attention Hog

Katrina Yates still finds it necessary to blab to the media about the love lives of other consenting adults. We wrote about her media appearances before. Now thesun.co.uk has run an article rehashing her despair that other people may have found lover and happiness with each other. Jane Atkinson reports. The subheadline says this is "One of the most disturbing stories you'll ever read." I agree, but not for the same reason an editor chose those words.

Disgusted by the discovery, Katrina turned her daughter in to the police.

It is disturbing to me that someone would use unjust laws to interfere with the love life of consenting adults, especially when she's supposed to love and support one of them.

And last year, after 47-year-old Butler was jailed for admitting to sex with an adult relative, Nicola, 27, vowed to have nothing more to do with him.

But now Butler has been freed from prison and Nicola has vanished.

Well, yeah, if she risks having police arrest her for having consensual sex with someone she loves, disappearing can be a good idea.

Katrina, from Birmingham, met Butler at work in 1984 when she was 17. Within a year they were married and went on to have Nicola and son Lee, now 25 — but then their relationship broke down.

She said: “He was a good dad but we just grew apart. We separated when Nicola was four.”

So it was OK for Katrina to fall in love with Butler, but not another woman, not a woman who has inherited some of her traits?

And when Katrina got together with electrician Carl Yates, 41, both Nicola and Lee called him dad.
She said: “Carl treated my kids as his own and when Nicola was 18 she changed her surname by deed poll to Yates."

So Nicola has a social father. Butler hasn't had that role with her. What is the problem???

Even Nicola's sister reported Nicola was happy with him...

Nicola kept fobbing her mum off with excuses [preventing her mother from meeting her boyfriend] and, to throw her off the scent, she invited her teenage half-sister Natalie over to meet “Andy”. 

Katrina said: “If I said I’d pop round, she’d always say she’d save me the trouble and come to my house.

“My other daughter met ‘Andy’ a few times and although she said he was much older than Nicola, she said her sister seemed happy — that was all I ever wanted for my children.” 

But she couldn't just accept it. Instead, she had to cause trouble. After two prosecutions apparently haven't dissuaded their love, shouldn't the media, law enforcement, and Ms. Yates just let them be happy together?

The paper does mention that this is a matter of Genetic Sexual Attraction.

For all the finger-wagging, nobody gives a good reason why these two lovers shouldn't be free to share love, sex, residence, and marriage, if that is what they want, without prosecution, bullying, or discrimination. "I'm disgusted" is not a reason. Don't like it? Don't do it. LEAVE THEM ALONE!!!

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Posted in: breaking up homes,consanguineous,courts,family reaction,father-daughter,GSA,incest,lack of equality harms,love,media,persecution,prejudice,prosecution,UK